Episode 23: Dr. Ramani on Healing, Boundaries, and Moving Forward

Dr. Ramani Durvasula

Ali Kessler: [: 00:00:00

This conversation is for you. So I've heard her name from so many previous guests on this podcast, and I'm so thankful to have her here and share wisdom with us. So we will definitely get into her [00:01:00] newest bestseller, "It's Not You: identifying and healing from narcissistic people," as well as her two other books, but to start, we'd love to hear all about your background and how you became an expert in narcissism and why. Thank you for coming Dr. Ramani.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula: Thank you Ali. Thank you Randee. I'm so grateful. And Ali, you win as one of my favorite podcast hosts already. You pronounce my name perfectly and you have no idea how much that means to me 'cause it never happens. So thank you for that. Feels so validating. So I really. Appreciate that. How did I come to this place?

ys a boring route. When I was: 1999

Well, research often comes to us like our, I think our research ideas, necessity is the mother of invention. In this case. I had people, had students who were working in research sites, throughout the city, and they would come back sometimes [00:02:00] quite exasperated. One came back very exasperated one day. And the long and short of it was he was very frustrated by how badly some of the patients were behaving. And he was really describing entitlement and impulsivity. And it dawned on me that this was also taking a toll on the reception staff, the nursing staff, all the people who were interacting with them.

And then I thought, wow, this means everyone might potentially be getting slightly less, poorer healthcare because these poor healthcare professionals are burning out. That started me on thinking about narcissism and personality as a research area because at that point in the late nineties, early two thousands, we weren't building personality into how we thought about treatment planning, how we were thinking about clients, even diagnostically and all of that, right?

ut I interestingly about the [: 00:03:00

And I was noticing clients repeatedly coming in with very similar relational issues. So in one part of my brain, I'm thinking about narcissism. The other part, I'm working with clients and I'm like, oh, why aren't we just talking to these clients about narcissism? Because that seems like the puzzle piece.

In doing that, what I recognize, and I did the research on it, the field of mental health had never, almost ever, at that point, maybe I could count on one hand, a handful of books had taken it on, really specifically addressed the issue of how narcissism affects other people. There was any, nothing pages of.

Work. Yes, I agree. And with patients of work on the narcissistic people. Yes. But there was very little on how it affects other people. And what's interesting is there is research on how, for example, addiction affects family members and partners. How dementia affects a family members and partners. But there was almost, and even other mental illnesses like, major depressive disorder, but nothing on narcissism.

thought of all these things, [: 00:04:00

That then led to my first book, should I stay or Should I Go, nah, on this topic in 20, because that was 2016, but I'd been quietly working on this for a long time. Nobody that was 2012 and then. The world changed politically. Yes. And the internet changed the world politically once that really kicked in 2016.

ic discourse. Yes. But before: 2016

Randee Kogan: back in the days. When I was practicing Also, if it wasn't seen, it didn't exist.

[: 00:05:00

Dr. Ramani Durvasula: And also because Randee, the whole idea, and I view this as, it's the gender bias that's always been a big part of the field of psychology and mental health is.

It disproportionately affected women.

Randee Kogan: Yes.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula: It's a very male dominated field. Almost every major theory in the field was created by a man. Every major modality of treatment, with just a few exceptions, was created by a man.

Randee Kogan: Absolutely a

Dr. Ramani Durvasula: white man. You know what I'm saying? This is not a perspective that was in line with what was happening to people who didn't have a stronger voice in society and all of that.

ly agree with you is that we [: 00:06:00

Law enforcement isn't gonna do anything about emotional abuse. It's not against law. I know that firsthand, right? Yeah. Yeah. So all of that combines that. Probably the most psychologically harmful type of abuse is allowable.

ardest part too, with female [: 00:07:00

Correct. Always. What do I need to do to fix it? So everyone went along with that, correct. Because nobody was telling them different.

know if you'd agree or not in: 2025

Absolute. And in 2020, not books written from 1990. These are books written today. Yes.

Randee Kogan: Agreed. Agreed.

Ali Kessler: It's all very fascinating and I started reading your new book and I have been watching many videos and whatnot, and I know one of the things that you say is many people dealing with narcissism often ask themselves, what could I have done differently?

And you say Absolutely nothing. With that said, how do you prevent unforeseen or negative things from happening when dealing with a narcissist? If there's nothing you could have done different,

s so difficult, Ali, is that [: 00:08:00

Young people with all the content out there are getting a little better at recognizing warning signs and red flags. Earlier in a relationship. 'cause there's so many ways to learn about it now, which didn't exist 15, 20 years ago. Let's talk about that after the shift. That's a real shift, right? Yes.

So what do you do? So I think your question, Ali, it sounds like you're already in the relationship, you've been in it for a while. It's not going to be easy to leave. What do you do then? Above all else? You've gotta have realistic expectations because this is not going to change. So there are going to be limits.

nd people may not even blame [: 00:09:00

Very frustrated. Like I'm the only one who's doing everything around here. I'm raising the kids, I'm making the dinners, I'm going to work. And this person is still, playing video games. When there's the whole, the household is falling apart. So it's frustration. But when we take it to the severe end and we see dynamics like coercive control and exploitation and, severe manipulation. Now you're seeing a very different experience. So even though both are variants of narcissism, these relationships can look different and obviously, so the things you can do are going to be different. But sadly, some of the universal piece of what you have to do is you have to engage in radical acceptance.

This isn't gonna change. And either if I either, I get out knowing that and all the fallout that comes from getting out, like post-separation abuse or I stay in it. But this will never be a relationship of depth. It will never be a balanced relationship. It will always feel a little psychologically unsafe.

It's a limited relationship, [: 00:10:00

Whatever that looks like in narcissistic relationships is in essence, you're really limited to talking about the weather and whatever they're interested in. And that people are afraid

Randee Kogan: to leave.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula: Women are afraid

Randee Kogan: to leave because of the threats, because, and they stick with them. They follow through on those threats, and yes they do.

You're right. Once they separate or once a divorce has begun, that's where another level of abuse comes in. The financial abuse, the legal abuse. So they just find any way possible to maintain the control even out of the relationship.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula: Absolutely. And this is it. It not only links to post-separation abuse.

ple will say, wait a minute, [: 00:11:00

It's. It's legal abuse. It's coercive control, it's financial abuse. It's even tech abuse. Yes. The ability of people who are at all tech savvy to completely undermine a person's life in all technological spheres or spread information about them and all of that is actually getting worse and worse all the time.

ttorneys don't get this, and [: 00:12:00

So people call it the divorce industrial complex. There's too many people making too much money here. Agree. Each time there's a new discovery, a new forensic accounting, a new this, a new that. Paid judges, GALs, all these people are making money and we don't streamline these processes. I'm the first to say there are some limits because of the way the law is written in terms of what judges can do.

And I have to, when I work with clients, I'll say, I don't want you walking into this courtroom thinking that the best interest of your child is at all at issue here. Not at all. They're viewing your child in a similar way. They're viewing your car. In terms of how it's going to get split up. It's not like a child would be better off with the healthier, more regulated parent, and then the willingness of a narcissistic person to lie in court.

en who have been shredded by [: 00:13:00

The best case scenario is you're in a relationship with a cheating grandiose narcissist who's already secured their new supply and they're willing to move away to the new relationship. But the problem is sometimes that grandiose narcissist wants to play house. So when it's convenient again, they're gonna wanna pull the children back into the fold.

Yes. And they'll take a partner back to court.

Randee Kogan: That is exactly what's happening with one of my clients right now. Just all of a sudden, he made a scratch on himself and called the police, and because there was a scratch on him, the victim got arrested 18 months without seeing her children, and he's got unlimited money.

you said, another level that [: 00:14:00

Ali Kessler: someone like me I wasn't even in a relationship with Greyson's father, so it's not like I had to leave.

We were just, we just had a child, we shared. Custody of a child. That's right. So I couldn't leave to go and it was just basically trying to figure out how to navigate life with a narcassistic parent whom, I didn't really understand what was going on at the time. I knew that, he was conceited and grandiose and all of these things, which I now know to be narcissism and whatnot.

But I always thought that was just a type of personality yeah, he thinks highly of himself, but it was to another level. Where he created his own reality that was false and lived in, I call LALA land and trying to convince the rest of the world that he was in that, and that wasn't reality.

It was the hard part, especially trying to convince lawyers and judges that, he as perfect he is on paper, This was not what's going on.

other people to believe that [: 00:15:00

And stick with it. And that's what you saw the patterns of his behavior as time went on as he was ramping up this need for power over you. But

Ali Kessler: What type of, I guess you talk about there's about eight different types of narcissism now in my case. I'm just curious, how would you even, what would you even say he was?

He wanted to control, we weren't even together, so I don't really understand what some of the. Control was about, but obviously he's definitely had sociopathic tendencies because he committed murder, he killed himself. But I never really understood where it all came from.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula: Again, a lot of the qualities you're talking about are probably where we see malignant and vulnerable narcissism come together.

it. Coercive control is more [: 00:16:00

There's isolation, severe manipulation. Even the charm and charisma are not nearly as they have a, there's a menace behind them. It's you better look out. You don't know who I know. Like it's not, it's less of a, Hey, come into my fancy house. It's more of a, you don't know who you're dealing with.

I'm the toughest guy of all kind of nonsense. That's, but that vulnerable narcissism is that victimhood, the aggrieved sulin, the, almost like they think that the world's put a target on their back. I'll show you. The vulnerable narcissist is the, I'll show you so you can see when those two types come together.

Absolutely horrific. Endings to stories like as in your story come up. And that's, and again, I think that crossroads of malignant and vulnerable narcissism are where we see sociopathy and I think that is probably the most lethal combination. The issue becomes, because if we're gonna talk about psychopathy and narcissism, so people say, so what's.

chopathy as it's a different [: 00:17:00

Psychopathic person just doesn't care. None an absolute callous disregard. And so there's a difference there. Their nervous systems are different. Narcissistic people feel shame. They even feel guilt. The guilt quickly turns to shame. Psychopathic people don't have that. That's why violating the rights of other people is almost so much easier for a psychopathic person.

Whereas for a narcissistic person, they'll do it because they feel entitled to it. But it does bring up a sense of shame because now they don't look. Great to the world, they'll shift that blame onto other people so they can keep themselves clean, but they definitely sit in that discomfort.

Ali Kessler: Yeah, no, that makes sense.

I'm Greyson's father literally told me his life goal would be to make me suffer.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula: Yep. And

Ali Kessler: that's what he did.

at he did and that's what he [: 00:18:00

The malignant narcissism is what makes it more likely for them to. Act on it. The vulnerable narcissism. What drives this idea? The world's gonna pay because I am not happy. It's that constant sense of grievance and in cases like these of the revenge that never ends, right? The kids are now even getting to the end of adolescence and now the new issue is that narcissistic parent could even in some cases try to win those kids over with money or things and turn them against the parent.

Some parents are like, they're turning 18. I'm gonna breathe a sigh of relief. I'm like, not so fast. No. And so it's a never ending story, and in cases like this, Ali, new supply, like a new partner, often the revenge to them is more gratifying than the idea of having a, a partner be to just have their new supply and keep going.

ng is in a similar situation [: 00:19:00

Dr. Ramani Durvasula: It's such a difficult question and it's interesting you're saying this 'cause I was just in a meeting, we were talking about a case that's a tragedy about to happen.

Okay? Yes. And what is so horrible about it, and I gets, I'm so raw right now. Not a lot. You know what I'm, our laws are set up that if a woman tries to get her children out of an emotionally dangerous situation, she's more apt to be arrested for kidnapping Yes. Than congratulated for protecting her children.

And if she's found out to do that. They're able to work through a divorce process, the mother's gonna be considered a flight risk, and that might even affect her, not only custody, but set her up for having things like supervised visits. So actually people are not empowered to be able to create safety in these situations if there has been no.

training order, then there's [: 00:20:00

Narcissistic, psychopathic and sociopathic people will never abide by a protective order. If anything, it's a taunt to them. Like how much within the 300 yards or whatever it is, can I get into this person? And then the first time the court lets them off, like they send one email, they warrant to that's a first warning.

I'm like, you've just lit a fire under this. Now they know they can get away with it. And that all. So you're closing all the doors. And so sometimes it's rudimentary safety plans. It's making sure every document you could possibly need is photocopied and put in an out, in a separate location than where you live.

ho gets it? Who gets it? You [: 00:21:00

If the therapists who don't get it will sometimes downplay oh, come on. Couples go through stuff. I'm like no. We can. We can put our ear to the ground. We can hear these hoof beats. That's another thing I would say though, even at the largest level. Don't doubt yourself if it feel like it feels like danger coming.

It's coming. And even in this meeting I had earlier today, we were talking about there are companies out there that actually do threat assessment and can take all the data and do a formal threat assessment. And as much as I know people hate ai, I have to say one thing AI is probably gonna be able to do before long is if you pour in the texts and the emails and all the other stuff, right?

I think AI soon is gonna have the capacity to be able to do a relatively calculated risk assessment. Threat assessment. How soon. That's interesting. But the problem here, ally, is the court isn't listening. Law enforcement isn't listening. And what we get over and over from people is law enforcement saying we can't do anything until they do something.

[: 00:22:00

There's no other, you can't stop a vindictive person from wanting to be vindictive.

Ali Kessler: And what they're doing, even my lawyers and judges they didn't really see an issue. They were just like, tell me,

Dr. Ramani Durvasula: look at this case of these three little girls who were just killed. I know. Yep. Yep. I don't need to, every damn day we're hearing about something, over and over again.

And that was another case that was working its way through the system.

e victim in the same, on the [: 00:23:00

As the narcissistic. That's right. Husband or partner. So right there, I. They're already being labeled difficult. So if there's no evidence there, they call it hearsay. So there's so many circles and there's never ending for a victim to get out because they're being put in the same category as the narcissist.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula: This is why I, if you don't know her work, you should Dr. Christine Cocchiola's work on Coercive control. We had her on. Yeah, she's wonderful. She's, she actually, her years ago, she was the one who said, we must never use the term high conflict because by using that term, high conflict, we've immediately put both players in an equal level.

And in a way it almost lifts the pressure off the court. Yes. To see this for what it really is. And yet the other, you can't say narcissism in court. You can't say gaslighting in court. You can't say psychopathy in court. So all of this very informative language is taken away. So when we are working with clients, we're trying to.

Have them [: 00:24:00

So when these cases come along, the entire system gets frustrated because it's an inefficiency in the system. And there. Angry at the more protective parent for trying to say, I want to protect my child. Basically, all they're seeing is you've just created more work

Randee Kogan: for

Dr. Ramani Durvasula: you're, they're known as

Randee Kogan: litigators now.

Yep,

Dr. Ramani Durvasula: that's right.

Randee Kogan: That's right. And therapists are not testifying in criminal cases because we're considered hearsay or family court cases, it's considered hearsay, so we can't even help describe the patterns of behavior that. We've been seeing with our clients for so long. That's right. They just throw us out.

Yep, that's right.

Ali Kessler: Time basically, there's just nothing No, anyone can do. Nope.

many children who have died [: 00:25:00

They would've arrested her for kidnapping.

Ali Kessler: No I agree. It's, do you think that it will ever change? Do you think that it will ever get to a point where, I always say that until something happens to a judge what happened to me, nothing's gonna change.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula: I agree with you. And I think now less than ever.

Yes. Now less than ever. I think it Why is that? Because of the changing political tides and this has all shifted things to a very women hating world.

Ali Kessler: We just got a 50 50 law passed here in Florida, which has even made it harder.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula: It made it harder. You have, you're a state that's completely fighting against Yeah.

Coercive control laws. Yeah. There are. There are people who, with political power, who are trying to get rid of no fault divorce. We're going backwards. We're going No, absolutely.

ung and they just completely [: 00:26:00

And then all these men's rights movements came out and now with laws like 50 50, we did get Greyson's Law passed here in Florida, but we did have to remove a lot of the coercive of control language, even though it's still, basically in there. That is something that I want to see change in the future.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula: Yeah. There's only three states that have the coercive control loss at this point. Only three. Three out of 47 plus territories. Do they not

Ali Kessler: believe that this is a

Dr. Ramani Durvasula: thing? I think that what the issue is that it is, even now that it's like, for example, Connecticut, I think it's Connecticut, Hawaii, and California have it.

ials that are happening now. [: 00:27:00

The coercive control laws are based on this sense of a loss of autonomy that is not actually a physical loss of autonomy, but a psychological loss of autonomy, and that is what you, then you have to bring in experts to talk about that. That is where it's falling apart. Because that, it's almost because, listen, the court system in the United States, in, in most of the world is not trauma informed.

No. So it's not informed by what the limitations that happen for a person in terms of decision making and autonomy after you've been through trauma, and then it's beyond trauma. There's a reality here, right? That ultimately the more protective parent ends up sacrificing their children by trying to keep them from getting killed.

laws also are being co-opted [: 00:28:00

Randee Kogan: make or they punch themselves in the

Dr. Ramani Durvasula: face.

Randee Kogan: That's right.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula: And or they do withdrawals from an account and look, all the money's being taken. Yeah. Anything to suit their narrative. Correct. Yep. And to you, so how

Ali Kessler: should a person co-parent with a narcissist? Should you just play nice?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula: Let's not even call it co-parenting, right? Let's call it parallel parenting, parallel collaboration.

Because parallel parenting is the, you do your own thing. Sad face. The fate is that you have to raise this child with this other person, but there is no collaboration.

I think that it's the number one, it's again, it's the realistic expectations. This isn't optimal and I think what many parallel parenting, situations I've seen is that the parent is still trying to make it all seem normal.

fer. What we're trying to do [: 00:29:00

So the healthier parent, the more protective parent using Dr. Koch's terminology is the parent who. Keeps the routines, maintains the relationships with the school parents from a place of empathy and recognizes that there's this repro moment this coming back together. Their kids come back into the house completely dysregulated.

They're all over the map. You need almost 24 to 48 hours just to bring that kid's nervous system back down and then you don't have that many days left. But I think a lot of parents, active parents feel like they're doing badly 'cause their kids are coming back into their homes, dysregulated and chaotic.

t, in a circumstance that is [: 00:30:00

Randee Kogan: and if they feel that the parent the protective parent is winning or taking over, taking control, that's when the DCF calls the false DCF calls.

Then they start making accusations in the Chi Children's schools and not allowing them to go to therapy. So put a tracker on

Dr. Ramani Durvasula: your car, put a tracker on your car, and we all have a tracker. It's called an our phone. Our phone, yeah. We're all being tracked, and that's what I'm saying with the tech abuse, right?

Yes. They always know.

Ali Kessler: Yeah. Greyson's father actually started to create fake social media accounts and started, that's common contacting me about Greyson. It was to another level.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula: Yeah, that's exactly what it's common. All the tech abuse is getting worse and worse.

Ali Kessler: So I'm just curious, how does one become a narcissist?

their parents? It's, listen, [: 00:31:00

Dr. Ramani Durvasula: early environment has a lot. Early environment, has a lot to do with everything we become, right? Yeah. It's not unique to narcissism. Our personality is shaped by an interaction of our temperament, of our early social environment and the things that can happen there.

Adversity, trauma, consistency, availability. But it all mixes up with that temperament, which is why. Three siblings from the same family raised under similar enough conditions. One of them could be narcissistic and two of them may not. Yes, you'll see that there are some psychologists and theoreticians and personality researchers who argue that narcissism is largely a post-traumatic state, that something did go wrong for them early in life, whether it was disruptions and attachment.

divergence and then that the [: 00:32:00

Temperament is like that biological, inherited part of our personality. It's why a, you would have a quality. In you that resembles an aunt that you've never met. They're like, oh my gosh, your aunt did exactly the same. We've never met the aunt, so you didn't learn it. It was a, it's something just biological inherited.

Those two things collide, and that's where narcissism comes from. And so I tell people, I don't even want you to use the narcissism word until someone's over 25, right? Because the brain continues to develop at a pretty steady clip until someone is 25. All adolescents are pretty selfish and.

Difficult with their parents. That's just a thing. But that's why a lot of people out there think, oh, my adolescent is narcissistic. I'm like I think they're a teenager. That's just a teenager. Yeah. But as we get to 25, you see a stabilization of the adult personality, and so that's where it comes from.

w people say is social media [: 00:33:00

Because they're, there is a constant flow of social comparison and social anxiety.

Randee Kogan: And I think what I'm noticing quite a bit with younger adults, middle adults they're throwing the term narcissism around. Yeah, they are. Everybody is a narcissist and I love. One of the videos, you were talking about the difference between a toxic individual and a narcissistic individual.

Can you share a little bit more about the differences?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula: Yeah. I think that you remember, can you be both? You can let's put it this way. All narcissistic people are pretty toxic. Toxic, not all toxic or are jerky. People are narcissistic. If you'll correct, narcissism is comprised of a list of traits and patterns and qualities, and you gotta have 'em all.

k and choose. So you see the [: 00:34:00

I'm more special than anybody else. My issues are the I should always get my way pathological, selfishness, not regular selfishness, like literally they're. Always, they always are the center. There's nobody else to be considered. We will see narcissistic people are also, they're impulsive and they can be emotionally dysregulated when they're frustrated or stressed out.

So if things don't go the way they feel entitled to them going, that's when you're gonna see these ramp up of anger. Narcissistic people are also, they're very status oriented. It's very much, again, getting that attention. It's an ex. Obsessive need for attention and validation. So when you put all that together, that's narcissism.

e just, sometimes people are [: 00:35:00

And that person might even show change definitely not somebody you want to drink with, they're not narcissistic. The other thing with narcissism is that there's a calculated quality to it, and to me, this is the ringer. Because what the narcissistic person is able to do is turn it on and off.

They know how to behave in front of certain audiences. Yes. So that's why narcissistic people are actually the mask be good. They can mask Exactly. They can be good in family court, they can be good at the country club. They can be good in front of the neighbors. They can be good in front of people that matter to them.

you start to feel completely [: 00:36:00

Such a good person. And again, going back to what multiple people in this field say is that. But they're a good parent. And Christine is great about saying no. If you harm the other parent, you're never a good parent. Yes. I don't care if you take them to Disneyland to the end of time. I don't care if you read Bedtime story to them every night.

If you were cruel to the other parent, by definition, you're a bad parent.

Ali Kessler: That's what Greyson's law is essentially, because the court said he didn't hurt the child. He was only threatening me they didn't grant my restraining order, but they did grant my stalking injunction with the same evidence saying, okay, he can't be around you but your son a toddler should be fine.

onsistency is such that this [: 00:37:00

It's almost give them just enough rope. They're going to get there. You've just got, I, and this is where when we, any of us who sort of work and prepare people to go into family court, I'm like, I need you to keep your mouth shut. Yes. You speak only when you're spoken to. And as hard as it is for me to say this, no tears, no dysregulation.

I don't care what we need you to do to ground you. It is just the facts, ma'am. You are not going to draw empathy from that judge. And the more you let your narcissistic partner speak without your emotionality present, which I validate, you have every right to, but it ain't gonna work in here.

The narcissistic person is always going to melt down.

st time. They're coming out. [: 00:38:00

Ali Kessler: I want to get to your book.

"It's not you identifying and healing from narcissistic people." So what would you say would you want your readers or listeners to get out of this book?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula: That so many of the books out there about narcissism are about the narcissist. This is really meant to be a book about your healing and that the need for healing is real.

It's very possible and that's really what it is. I had a really interesting conversation with someone the other day because I think we're really in an era, social media and all the rest of it and all this wellness stuff and everything is that you can always like erase the board and you could be healthy and everything's great.

ntleness. To what we've been [: 00:39:00

It's gonna take longer for some people than others. And a very big takeaway is I'm not a fan of forgiveness, and frankly, I don't believe in it. When somebody has wronged you repeatedly and repeatedly, a person who should have protected you, a person who should have kept you safe. This idea that somehow forgiveness is some sort of magic eraser is a load of nonsense.

And when people hear that, you don't have to, if you want to, but genuinely know that is that this person you've forgiven is very likely to harm you again, then a lot of people have gone. I don't know what, I forgive that and listen, I've had arguments with therapists about this who don't agree, but I will tell you for a lot of people there's a freeing, especially for people who can't fully get out of these relationships, whether it's family.

Partners, whatever this parallel parenting like I don't forgive them for what they're putting my kid through for what they've put me. And I said, that's okay. It's not gonna stop you from healing. It's a very realistic

gan: look. I think you're, I [: 00:40:00

Thank you, Rick. Because, and when people bring that up I run a trauma therapy group. And when people bring up, I have to forgive. We talk about that word and we define that word and maybe we change that word to how can you find your peace within the situation? Because I agree, forgiving somebody who has harmed you in so many ways, that's.

Dismissing the victim again,

Dr. Ramani Durvasula: and also it's the continual harm. Listen, somebody kind have harmed you and there are sometimes opportunities for that restoration and repair that a person comes if the harmful person was accountable, if the harmful person doesn't give you a nonsense apology I'm sorry you feel that way.

hich is a change in behavior [: 00:41:00

Psychological harm can come to people who keep forgiving and continually keep getting harmed. We put too much focus on forgiveness, heals everything, and again, now we're back to the wellness porn of it all. Yes. There's a reality here, but these limits, what I mean by limits aren't mean.

I'm not saying that means the person can't heal. I'm saying that there are gonna be bad days and then. You gotta hold the time and the space for those bad days.

Ali Kessler: It's like the definition of insanity just keeps happening and happening. So how would, what would you tell our listeners to set some healthy boundaries when dealing with a narcissistic person in their life?

ll tell people, I don't want [: 00:42:00

I don't want you to share your bad news with them. Yes. Because your good news, they're going to mock it. They're going to dismiss it. They're going to compete with it. And what that does is a lot of people go running to the narcissist with their good news. This thing happened to me, thinking this will win them over.

They're gonna, yes. Cool. They're never going to, they're either gonna feel competitive with you or they're just gonna knock you back down. I say to people. You need your good people list. Yes, those three, four, or five people. You take your good news, you're like, oh my gosh, I'm so proud of you. I'm so happy.

Then at some point, if you feel up to it, tell the narcissist or don't, or maybe they'll find out through someone else bad news as well. Don't let them be your first go-to. I can't tell you how many times. Great example, I'm thinking of somebody who said she'd gone to her husband and said, I just heard from the doctor and it's stage three cancer.

es, first response. Okay, so [: 00:43:00

Randee Kogan: inconvenience.

So

Dr. Ramani Durvasula: For him being inconvenienced. So it's finding those people, whether it's the dishwasher, crapping out or something as terrible as that. Have your bad people list. You call not bad people, bad news people list that you call and say, Hey, I, this happened, and then they will give you what you may need to hear.

Now, ultimately, the narcissistic person may need to hear about it, but make sure you have places that will hold you in that moment. And third talk, you can talk to them about superficial nonsense. Can you believe the rain? Can you believe how wet it's been this year? That's that's about it.

Or look at that. The neighbors had got a new trash can and then I've had people say to me Dr. Ramani, that doesn't really feel like that's a relationship. I'm like, it's not been one. And at least now we can, avoid you from walking into this really dark forest. And the other thing you can talk about is what they wanna talk about.

. Oh, really? Interesting. I [: 00:44:00

Exactly. We already have. Yes. With Greyson's

Ali Kessler: father, I had literally just gave him the bare minimum because anytime I responded or wrote back or gave information, he used it against me. We only talked about logistics, or I did anyway. He didn't. He would write about anything. But yeah and plus, if I did go to him with any good news or bad news, like you said, it would almost give him like an inkling to be like, she wants to talk to me.

Oh, she wants to be my friend. But once you start opening up to someone, they're gonna hit you back yes, they're 20 times harder. Yeah. Yep. They'll take it and

Dr. Ramani Durvasula: run. They'll take it and run. Yep. The less is more in these relationships.

Ali Kessler: So let's talk about your, the healing program.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula: Yeah.

Ali Kessler: Can you share with our listeners what that is?

e the thing I'm the so proud [: 00:45:00

So the Our healing program, every month there is a workshop on a set topic. So like this particular month I'm doing your podcast, it's been your small triumphs in healing. Like people are like little things like, I didn't think about them until one o'clock in the afternoon today. That kind, I didn't take the bait today.

So the small victories, and so we'll do a workshop on that. There's journal prompts that are, that people in the community can work on all month. There is a q and a session. We have one that's virtual that you can type, and then there's one that people pre-submit questions and ask during the, so they can get questions answered.

dated, and we very carefully [: 00:46:00

We are on it. I've two fantastic moderators on it. They're on it like 20 times a day. So if anything funky is happening, that person's. Pulled right out. So it's a place where you can be safe and know that you're not alone. We are 36 months, 39 months in the changes I've seen in some people. It's absolutely remarkable.

Wow. And and because you know you're not alone and you're getting new information. And you can pick and choose. So some months you might be like, eh, this isn't as relevant to me. And so there's a lot of stuff there. And so that, again, so proud of it. It is, it's fantastic.

And the people in it are amazing. I have nothing but good things to say. It's been a remarkable experience for me too. It always keeps me on my toes every month. It's like researching a mini book and which is good for me. It dives me into the current literature. Also improve. How do you pick your topic

Ali Kessler: for the month?

owdsource and people saying, [: 00:47:00

Ali Kessler: And how does one sign up?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula: You go to my website, you go to my Instagram, we have the link for that in the bio.

You can also go to our website. The link is right there, and I'll put that all in our show now. Please do. Yeah, and we'll send that to you. And we have a press kit if we didn't already get it. We'll make sure you can.

Randee Kogan: That's wonderful. Congratulations. Thank you. It's so necessary. For people to realize they are not alone in this.

That's all of it. Yeah. Because

Dr. Ramani Durvasula: people, the, I think the challenge here is that people think, I am the only person in this Insane Yes. It's like there's no, because people don't talk about this. My hope is more people talk about it. And so now when you realize you're not alone, a whole world of options feels like it opens up because you're not expending so much resource on feeling crazy.

Yes. You're like, okay, I'm definitely reading this right now. You can get into a different kind of a mental head space with it. Yeah.

and just one thing you want [: 00:48:00

Dr. Ramani Durvasula: This book's about healing, and I think that healing is about. You separate from the relationship. So what I want them to get out of it is one of the challenges of always talking about narcissism, narcissistic relationships, is that the narcissist still remains the focus. This book is about you separate from that person.

What do you want? What do you like? What do you like on your pizza? What do you want the thermostat set? Who are you? What are your aspirations? All of that was shut down by that relationship. I don't care what they told you it was. What do you want on your pizza? And a lot of survivors will say, I don't know.

It's been so long. I'm like, then let's sit here for a minute and maybe we'll get one and you don't like it and you'll try another. But this is a journey back to yourself and away from the subjugation of this relationship.

Randee Kogan: How wonderful.

Ali Kessler: Yeah.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula: I thank you.

Ali Kessler: I can't wait to find my inner healing. For sure.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula: It's a process. It's a process. No. Yep.

ram and your website and all [: 00:49:00

Dr. Ramani Durvasula: you.

Ali Kessler: And I really thank you for joining us today. You too, Randee.

And hopefully we'll chat again because I'm sure we'll just have more and more questions come my way anyway.

Randee Kogan: Absolutely. It was such a pleasure to meet you and I really look forward to reading more of your material because it's. Just absolutely wonderful and helpful. Thank you so much. It was, I do wanna say, before

Ali Kessler: I say goodbye, I was reading your book and you talk about Rumi and I actually have right here because in college I studied Sufism.

I don't know if you can see this. It all interesting. There you go. It blur.

Yeah. You

Ali Kessler: Had it for, but I love a quote that said, let the beauty of what you love be what you do. And I was reading your book when you said that, you were talking about out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and Right doing, there's a field and I'll meet you there.

So are you saying when dealing with a narcissist, you have to find a way to work in the middle? Or what is happening in that field?

you're gonna meet the other [: 00:50:00

And that the, that wrongdoing it's calling it what it is. It is wrongdoing. You know what I'm sick and tired of? I'm sick and tired of saying people are different ways in relationships. No. There are things people do in relationships that are wrong and they're unsafe. And here's the thing.

They may have a history and I'm sorry for that. And there's lots of lovely people in our business, mine, Randee's business, who can see them for therapy. But you do not get to keep hitting people over the head. Because you're mad about something that happened to you. We are not all your trauma therapists. And so that's what I mean.

Ali Kessler: I love it and I will meet you all on the field. That's

Dr. Ramani Durvasula: right.

Randee Kogan: We'll be there.

Ali Kessler: Alright, thank you so much to the both of you and have a great day.

Randee Kogan: Thank

You too.