Episode 24
Episode 24: Breaking the Cycle with Adrianne Phoenix
This is your go-to Podcast, where we help parents navigate the complexities of family life. Hosted by Ali Kessler of Greyson’s Choice, we’ll cover everything from understanding domestic violence to navigating the legal system, finding the right therapists, life hacks, family law, mental health, custody battles, and how to protect children in dangerous situations.
Adrianne Phoenix’s Journey: Surviving Domestic Abuse and Breaking Cycles
In this episode of Grey Minds Think Alike, we speak with Adrianne Phoenix, a survivor of domestic abuse and childhood trauma. Adrianne discusses her work with FACTS (Families Against Court Travesty), her experiences navigating family court, and her ongoing efforts to ensure her children do not fall into the same patterns of abuse. Emphasizing advocacy and humor as tools for healing, Adrianne shares her journey of finding her voice and breaking generational cycles. Tune in to hear her insights on the complexities of domestic violence, sibling abuse, and the importance of transparency and community support.
About Adrianne Phoenix:
Adrianne is a mom, survivor, and parent advocate who is passionate about using humor to navigate life’s complexities. As a child, Adrianne was abandoned by her father and was living with her borderline mother, which led her down a long path of abusive relationships. Now a middle-aged mom of three, Adrianne navigates the uncertainties of life while battling the cruel injustice in family court, using humor to get through life’s hardest challenges.
About Ali Kessler
Ali Kessler is a writer, marketing professional, passionate parent advocate, and founder of Greyson’s Choice, a 501(c)(3) created to raise awareness about the risk of domestic abuse on children. Greyson’s Choice was founded by Ali Kessler in memory of her sweet, vibrant, and fearless 4.5-year-old son, Greyson, who was murdered by his biological father in a murder-suicide during an unsupervised, court-approved visit in Ft. Lauderdale, FL, in 2021. This came just hours after her petition for a domestic violence injunction was denied by a Broward County judge, citing that the “petitioner has failed to allege any overt acts by the respondent which would constitute domestic violence under Florida Statute.”
Ali’s advocacy efforts culminated in successfully passing Greyson’s Law during the 2023 legislative session. This bill now requires the court to consider threats against ex-partners or spouses when making child visitation and custody determinations in the court, expanding to include the following factors: evidence of domestic violence, whether a parent in the past or currently has reasonable cause to believe that they or a minor child is, or has been in imminent danger of becoming the victim of domestic/sexual violence by the other parent, even if no other legal action has been brought or is currently pending in court.
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Transcript
Adrianne Phoenix
Ali Kessler: [:Hi Adrianne. Thanks so much for talking with us. If you wanna just start by sharing a little bit about yourself and your background to let our listeners know all about you and how you became a parent advocate, that would be great.
Adrianne Phoenix: Okay. Thank you so much, Ali, for having me today. Yes, I. I am the former president of FACTS, which is Families Against Court Travesty.
d that led me down a path of [:So I consider myself a trauma informed parent, a protective parent, and I'm trying to break generational cycles of trauma and family abuse that have persisted in my family for years. So I'm trying to break that for my children and also raise awareness because there's a big problem of family members abusing each other out there.
Ali Kessler: Yes. Okay. And how did you actually get started with FACTS?
Adrianne Phoenix: So I was going through a divorce and, I Googled research. I came across FACTS probably about eight years ago and I thought, wow, these people know what I'm talking about. Based on the literature they were putting out and the people I spoke with there.
e that could relate. I could [:Ali Kessler: And you found that was an effective tool for you? I actually just had Lily Schwark on, so we talked all about FACTS just last week.
Adrianne Phoenix: I love Lily. Yes. FACTS was amazing. Just the community of people it's mainly women, but there are men involved as well. And having support in the courtroom, it is such a traumatic experience to be in a courtroom where you feel totally alone. So having the support of people that know what you're going through was.
back recently because of my [:Ali Kessler: Fun. Yeah. They definitely talk a lot about divorce here on Grey Minds,. So if you need some, any aDVice, I would tune into some of those podcasts. But now you mentioned that you were a survivor of DV. Can you talk a little bit about that from, was it from your childhood or your first marriage?
Adrianne Phoenix: So DV is a very broad term, right?
Yes. And a lot of times we think of domestic violence as a relationship problem, right? A man and a woman. But there are all kinds of domestic violence. Sure. It's violence within the home, and it can be perpetrated by a partner, a father, a mother, a sister, a brother, a cousin, a family member, even trusted coaches or teachers that are close to your life or close to your family, but whenever they live under the same roof as you.
a big problem. So I grew up [:I witnessed a lot of domestic violence that my mother went through as a child. So that stuck with me. And then I, every relationship I've had pretty much has been not so good in that respect where it's been a controlling relationship. And because I was raised the way that I was to have to walk on eggshells around my mother, it groomed me to play that same role in my relationships, and it has come to fruition over and over again, and I am 44 years old and I'm still trying to develop the skills to know my own worth and my [00:05:00] value. And I don't know if it, I don't know if I'll ever get there, but I want to give my children that ability to say, I'm worth more and I deserve better.
Ali Kessler: Absolutely. Of course. Now, so how do you think that being a survivor, living with your mother as she was, how do you think it affected your parenting style?
Adrianne Phoenix: I read a lot about all of this stuff and what I have gleaned is a lot of times victims of childhood trauma will continue down that same road, that same path, and just continue the cycle.
Yes. Or. They will try to be the cycle breaker, and I have definitely identified myself as a cycle breaker or at least
Ali Kessler: trying to be, yes.
Adrianne Phoenix: Yeah. So sometimes people say they learn from their parents, and I often say I learn from my parents what not to do or how not to be with my kids. At least.
think that's goal for every [:Adrianne Phoenix: That is the goal for most parents. But for a borderline parent, it's the opposite. My mother wanted to make me suffer like she did. She didn't wanna make it easier.
And I don't know if a lot of people out there know what a borderline personality is. And I hate to put all those labels on people because they're, labels are important for a lot of reasons, but then they're also very, putting people in a box and we're so complicated and complex that I don't like to put people in a box like that, but
what would
you
Ali Kessler: say the definition is?
Textbook of a border of Yes. Just to give our listeners some context.
people to take care of them [:So when that's your mother and you're seven years old, right? It's very difficult as a child,
Ali Kessler: right? 'cause you are the child and you expect them to do all of the nurturing.
Adrianne Phoenix: And I didn't get a lot of that, so I feel very Were your parents married? They were married, yeah, for about five years and then divorce, and it's really strange because I'm still very close to my father's side of the family, even though he like just failed.
He was very young. He was 19 when I was conceived, so he wasn't ready. My mother was older, she was 25, but she was not mentally, ready, I don't think to raise a child either. I'm here. Is your mother still in your life? So I have tried for many years, but recently, just this past year I've been doing a lot of inner child work, which has helped me with my kids, but also it's helped me identify some boundaries that I probably should have put in place a long time ago.
[:But she's actually done what borderlines and narcissists do, which is infiltrate the other people in my life that also maybe don't have my best interest at heart. It's not. It's just. Yuck. That's all I can say. It's just yuck.
Ali Kessler: That's definitely, having negative energy in your life can be toxic, so at least you recognize that.
Are you her only child?
about. And that's one of the [:So I didn't have any siblings growing up, but I did have cousin and I was abused and I was sexually abused by a cousin at a young age. And when I disclosed that to my mother years later, not at the time, she informed me that she also had been. Sexually abused by her brother, and when I disclosed that to
She, I had never known that until she You shared? Until I, I shared. And then even on my dad's side of the family, I had an aunt that I was close with on that side. When I disclosed what had happened to me, she informed me about the family secrets on that side, and also sexual abuse at the hands of the men in our family.
And I am just sick to my [:Ali Kessler: And from what I've seen and what I've researched and who I've spoken to, a lot of it is like you said. It's because it happens to them as a child and then they take that pattern and they bring it and then again, create cycles.
So yes, stopping the cycle in that is also super important because it will just keep happening generation after generation. So I always find that fascinating because it's like, this person is an abuser that, but they learned that from someone else when they were young. So they, it's almost like they don't know better.
They should know right from wrong, but they're groomed in such a way. So breaking that cycle is so important to end it. So I guess after you disclosed this information, what happened from there?
adio silence. It was oh wow. [:Okay. Hey, let's go to our family reunion next year and pretend like it didn't happen. And this is what really upset me, was this past summer there was an issue with a male in our family, an older male who is now. Really up in age and the family was concerned about this family member. Everyone was like, oh gosh, he was missing.
And I got so upset because that is the man that hurt a lot of women in our family. And I am at the point now where I feel like I don't care if he's missing right now. Why is our entire family right now up in arms about this person who hurt a lot of people? So he sexually assaulted
Ali Kessler: other family members besides you and your family?
has forgiven him and is just [:Got it. Yeah. This person didn't do, it's just what he represents. Sure. To me, in our family at this moment, there's just this lack of wanting to confront the people that have done it. Take accountability. I understand that, but some of us have to put our foot down and say, our family needs to heal, and the best gift we can give to our children is talking about this, not ignoring it, not sweeping it under the rug, not pretending like we're this perfect family that has no problems.
Sure. That's correct. Now, what about
Ali Kessler: your abuser? Have you been in contact with that person and now that you're an adult?
possible comfort, a possible [:I was in the same town. I could have gone to the house where everybody was gathering and I couldn't do it. I can talk about it now like to anyone else, but I don't. It's almost like I just don't even, it's, he's not even worth my time. I don't even want Sure.
Ali Kessler: No it takes up a lot, feelings and emotions that, some people might find it easier to not confront it, but at least talk about it to maybe a counselor or a therapist.
Adrianne Phoenix: Yeah, and my children have no contact with him. If my children were still, if we were still in the same city, if I knew that he was gonna possibly be around at all, then I would have a different approach. But because I know that we can pretty much avoid him, all of us, that's what I've chosen to do.
Ali Kessler: Okay. There is absolutely nothing wrong with
Adrianne Phoenix: that. Yeah, but most of us don't have that ability to avoid our abuser, especially in the family court system. No, of course.
Now, how would you say that [:Because I think that might be the hardest part.
Adrianne Phoenix: The hardest part is. Speaking up I have a blog that I started many years ago called I'm Finding My Voice, and it's important that we all find our voice. I'll give an example that really started motivating me to speak up more about things that might be taboo.
When I was 33 years old, I had a miscarriage and I had done what everybody tells you not to do, which is share the news prior to being 12 weeks along. So I shared it and then I miscarried, and then I had to share. I have lost the baby. It was my first pregnancy, my first miscarriage. I did not know at the time how comment it was.
I have known my entire life. [:And I made, I just said to myself, right then, the reason I don't know is because we're too ashamed to talk about it, but we gotta take the shame away 'cause I didn't do anything wrong. To have a miscarriage. I know this now. I did not know it at the time. And I think if we speak about this more, then people will understand.
The victims will understand that they're not in the wrong the shame and the guilt. Sure that we have, it just overwhelms you, and we have to get over that and just speak up and talk about it. So
Ali Kessler: why do you think some people actually continue the cycle? Do they not know right from wrong?
Do they think that because it happened to them that they're entitled to do it?
ns of people out there. Some [:Ali Kessler: Yeah, of course. So is that what it means to you to find your voice is to speak up?
Adrianne Phoenix: A hundred percent. We have gag orders in family court that are unconstitutional many times. And I think that whole idea of just silencing victims has permeated our culture from the legal system all the way down to we tell our children sometimes even to just, let's not talk about that.
But most of the time I think [:Ali Kessler: Yeah, absolutely.
And as I always say, sharing and talking about it is how you actually shed light on things, which is why I am so open about talking about what happened with me and Greyson. Because people need to know, and the more I can share, the more I can get it out there. So I totally agree with finding your voice.
I think it's hard for people to do that. Do you have any steps for people to maybe start that process of finding their voice and speaking up? Let's see.
Adrianne Phoenix: Steps really include, I think, first. Talking to somebody that you totally trust, which is hard to do especially when the people that you trust oftentimes are the ones that have hurt you the most.
's why I believe in therapy. [:Adrianne Phoenix: A hundred percent. And finding a community of people that you can relate to. So the, sisterhood. That I have found in a lot of women that have gone through what I've gone through has been just the only thing that's gotten me through a lot of the time.
A lot of people do have a mom that they can lean on, and I don't. So I do rely on my, I call it my tribe that I have made on my own. A lot of times we're burn, we're born with a family, right? But you can make your own tribe.
Ali Kessler: Absolutely. And
Adrianne Phoenix: I like to point out that phrase blood is thicker than water.
Yes. I think is actually, been inverted over time where the blood of the covenant is thicker than water of the womb, is what I believe that saying comes from. Which means your sisters and brothers in battle are the ones that you should have your loyalty to, not. Necessarily just the people that birthed you, DNA.
Makes [:Ali Kessler: Yep. I'm a big believer in, even just Facebook groups. I definitely belong to quite a few for different, topics.
At least you can converse with someone and chat with someone about things that you are both going through and you both know about. So I think that's important as well because that's actually, when you do hear other people sharing similar things, it makes you wanna share.
Adrianne Phoenix: A hundred percent. And that's actually how I started to find out about sibling violence.
others and half brothers and [:The reason I started. So what would you started
Ali Kessler: say is sibling abuse?
Adrianne Phoenix: I think anytime there's an imbalance of power and control, that's abuse. If somebody is trying to use the fact that they are older than you, bigger than you, stronger than you, smarter than you, because they are 16 and you're 12.
I'm sorry. That's abuse. Now it's a spectrum, right? It can be a little thing, it could be something as like more of a bullying situation. Or it can actually, I was just say, how do you
Ali Kessler: differentiate between bullying and abuse at that age?
Adrianne Phoenix: I think they're all on a spectrum. I don't think they are different.
llying is happening at home, [:Ali Kessler: child that is bullying or abusing the other child, how do you go about remedying it?
That they're both your children. In some cases, yeah.
Adrianne Phoenix: That's the dilemma. And that's probably why sibling abuse is so persistent. 'cause how can a parent choose, right? You have to point and sometimes the parent might,
Ali Kessler: Wear blinders because obviously they don't see it the way the child and the, the children may see it,
Adrianne Phoenix: right?
looking at myself as a child [:I might get emotional here. That's okay. Giving myself the nurturing and the love that I should have been given from my mother, from my parents, really, but doing it from myself to myself now and it's sounds weird when it works,
Ali Kessler: right?
Adrianne Phoenix: It does work in helping you process. Sure. Why you feel the way that you feel.
Ali Kessler: It's almost like hypnosis. You get back to a level, a place in your mind that sort of, people deal with that for fears or, irrational behaviors. They actually have to put themselves in these situations in their mind so that they can get through it, whether it's panic attacks or just fear of heights.
So I get that, putting yourself in that moment and trying to almost reverse it.
puts you in this mind frame [:Because that's what we need to do more, I think, as parents is listen to our kids. What are the age differences
Ali Kessler: between your kids?
Adrianne Phoenix: Mine are five six, seven, and 10.
Ali Kessler: Six. Seven and 10. Okay.
Adrianne Phoenix: Yes. And they have some teenage half siblings, so 15, 16, and 18. And it's the teenagers really that, there would've, there was a bit of an imbalance of power between them and the younger ones.
I have tried to, stop that as best
Ali Kessler: I can but those aren't your children, correct.
Adrianne Phoenix: Correct
Ali Kessler: of the teens. So how do you mitigate that?
divorce right now trying to [:But family courts don't care at the moment, I hate to make that generalization, but it's been very hard for me to protect my children from their teenage siblings. Very hard.
Ali Kessler: Got it. Do they live together
Adrianne Phoenix: a little bit? Half the time at the moment.
Ali Kessler: Gotcha.
Adrianne Phoenix: Okay.
Ali Kessler: So I'm just curious, the, your ex-husband, the parent of the teenagers, did they, does he not see an issue or does not believe?
Adrianne Phoenix: He did see an issue for a while. I don't know what has occurred that has made him do a 180 and now think that there isn't an issue. I have a lot of I have a lot of theories about why that has happened, but I don't have a actual absolute answer.
Ali Kessler: Okay. That's part of the problem there.
ren have are bullies or have [:And it's not an indictment on the parent, to say, Hey man, my child. Messed up. We have work to do. I think a lot of parents take it as such a, an attack whenever you say, Hey man, your kid hurt my kid. And I think and especially in this instance
Ali Kessler: when they're both his kids, I'm assuming.
Yeah.
Adrianne Phoenix: Yeah. Yeah. That is I can't even tell you what's going on between the teens. They have their own issues. I don't even know a lot of those issues. I know a little bit, but there's definitely a problem when the parents don't wanna acknowledge and take a stand when you have a child that's abusing another child.
You can't just sit back and say, oh, I hope it works itself out. You have to make a decision, right? You do have to take a stand. I don't know exactly what that is. Sure. You
sler: need to actually teach [:I think that's a good example right there.
Adrianne Phoenix: A hundred percent. It's just sometimes they can't put themselves in another person's shoes it seems so the preaching from the parents. Sometimes isn't getting through and then you still have a problem. So what do you do next? I've been through the juvenile justice system with these teens.
Ali Kessler: Okay.
Adrianne Phoenix: There is not, there are not a lot of resources.
Ali Kessler: Sure.
Adrianne Phoenix: There just isn't, there's not a lot of, there's not a lot of mental health resources. I was just reading yesterday about kids being Baker active and sent to JFK. There's a teen mental health crisis, in my opinion, and we just are not addressing it effectively as parents, as a society.
implement and make a change [:Ali Kessler: Yeah. That's the, that's definitely the first step. So now when I was reading a little bit about you, you mentioned the word trauma. So I wanna say like, how has humor helped you get through life's challenges and navigate, all of maybe the negatives?
Adrianne Phoenix: Yeah. I have also found through therapy and through my inner child work that humor and comedy is often a trauma response, right?
Ali Kessler: Yes. It's definitely a defense mechanism for some, including myself.
Adrianne Phoenix: Yeah. Some of the funniest people that we know have had such traumatic experiences and there is therapy in it.
Need to be not, I don't, I'm [:I don't act out. But I just find the humor in things or try to, yeah. It's definitely a
Ali Kessler: form of self-help. So how do you find that humor? Do you take like for one I'll gonna divulge that. I used to actually teach sketch comedy. I worked in an adult sleepaway camp and I taught sketch comedy.
And when I lived in New York City, I went to all these classes at the Upright Citizens Brigade Theater and the Magnet Theater, and I took writing classes and that was always something very prevalent in my life. Since I had Greyson, I have taken a step back with all of that as though there just wasn't time.
So how do you find that you, mark.
Adrianne Phoenix: I actually went to a high school for the performing arts in Jacksonville, and I was a theater major, so a lot of the same things we would, yeah, I wasn't like that good, but I found great.
Ali Kessler: You don't have to be good in sketch comedy, you just have to do it.
There
Adrianne Phoenix: was, playing another role. It's a great way to express your feelings but not feel so vulnerable.
it's like role playing. Yep. [:Adrianne Phoenix: A hundred percent. And I love, I didn't know that about you. Yeah. That you had that background. Because I would really love to get teens and kids into more programs like that where, not necessarily just acting, but acting from a trauma-informed perspective.
Sure. And roleplaying things like this. Roleplaying things like, sibling violence and bullying. It's definitely an outlet. You come from that. Yeah. Yeah. I wanted to have something called a TikTok on the block club with local teens where we make little tiktoks about this kind of stuff. It's very therapeutic.
Ali Kessler: Sure.
Adrianne Phoenix: To act it out and then to get feedback from others. In my opinion, it's not for everybody. No absolute. Maybe we can team up on some sort of a venture, some one of these days. Yeah,
ted to do when I was younger [:Adrianne Phoenix: hundred percent.
And writing all of the arts, in my opinion, are, and if you think about some of the greatest artists of our, of, in art history, they were very tortured, a lot of them as well. Art in all aspects. Painting, drawing, writing, very therapeutic.
Ali Kessler: Yep. My team year old, actually, I'm actually a writer, so I know that firsthand.
Adrianne Phoenix: My 10-year-old just, we had some friends visiting and one of the teenagers, a young lady that visited us as a writer and she had some creative writing. Websites that she was working on, and it really inspired my 10-year-old. He just, last week was like, Hey mom, check out this website. I wanna write some more. So I thought about that.
reat. Yeah, I was an English [:I would say get a pen, but now you just, you can type away and, it's literally just whatever's inside your mind,
Adrianne Phoenix: it can take you so many places and it sure can very therapeutic. And whether it's trauma or drama or comedy or whatever you want to write, all of the arts, I think, are so therapeutic.
Sure.
will help not only them, but [:And so I appreciate you for sharing your story and how Thank you. You share your voice and find your voice. So thank you so much for coming on and talking with our listeners. You have any final words for anyone that might be go, might be going through something you know? Difficult, whether it be abuse, sibling abuse, or just any kind of, life complexities.
Adrianne Phoenix: Yes. I think stand up, speak up and don't let anyone silence you. Sure. If this person that you're speaking to doesn't listen, go to somebody else. Keep talking, keep speaking until somebody listens, would be my aDVice. And to you. Allie, I want to say thank you so much for this platform and the awareness that you have brought to South Florida through your tragedy.
sing this in such a positive [:Ali Kessler: I'm trying, I get, a lot of questions and emails thrown at me every single day, and I don't have the answers to help people with what they need. So if I could just interview and chat with people that do have some answers, then that is the goal.
Adrianne Phoenix: Do you think Greyson's Law could be used for sibling violence situations?
Ali Kessler: I am. It depends on, it's case by case, but I don't see why not. If the. Ultimately if a child is being harmed in any way, then a judge should be able to step in and remove the child from the situation or figure out ways to mitigate that situation.
It doesn't necessarily have to be the, the parent harming the child, the parent harming the parent. If anyone is harming anyone in your household, then something needs to change.
Adrianne Phoenix: Hundred percent.
ich is what for me, which is [:And for a judge, or for lawyers, or for anyone to not recognize, this just seems just completely asinine to me.
Adrianne Phoenix: I totally agree. And I'm actually finding. At least in my case, it seems to me like it's the attorneys that are just, they just don't want to pursue it. They don't wanna bring up Greyson's Law.
Yeah. It's
Ali Kessler: a lot of work for them and they, if they're not getting paid well, they don't wanna do the work and they're lazy. Yeah. So I always tell people, do you have a good lawyer? Do you really have a good lawyer? And when I say a really good lawyer, I mean that one that's looking out for your best interest, not just their wallet.
Because I have yet to have met that lawyer.
Adrianne Phoenix: I get it. I will say I had a really great attorney that has a conflict of interest for me now, and I'm so bummed that I cannot use this attorney.
i Kessler: Refer that person [:Adrianne Phoenix: A hundred percent. Can I say her name on here?
I will. 'cause she's afraid, if you like what type of attorney? She's a family law attorney. Her name is Robin Weiss and she's amazing and I so wish I could And her What city does she serve? She's in Palm Beach County. Okay. Yeah, Palm Beach County mainly. I think she goes to Broward and Martin as well, but she's based in North Palm, I think.
Ali Kessler: Okay, I will definitely put that info in the show notes and you never know who's listening and when they need a family lawyer, people ask me all the time for recommendations. So I'm always happy to share.
Adrianne Phoenix: Okay, great.
Ali Kessler: Alright, thank you so much Adrianne. I really appreciate you coming on and sharing and we'll keep in touch 'cause I'm sure we'll have more to talk about.
Adrianne Phoenix: Hundred percent. Thank you so much, Ali. You have a great day.
