Episode 5: Divorcing a Narcissist – A Survivor's Guide with Tina Swithin of One Mom’s Battle

Episode 5: Tina Swithin

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[00:01:02] Ali Kessler: Yes, I couldn't think of another way of how to give back to the community that reaches out to me every day with their questions and needs. And, they want advice and I'm just like, I don't have the answers, but what I can do is talk to people that might have some answers to help, And that's the goal here with Grey Minds.

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[00:03:11] Tina Swithin: And I felt like I was in the twilight zone. You cannot make sense of it. And so, it was about two years into my, custody battle before I just out of sheer frustration and desperation decided to go sit in the courthouse and just watch other proceedings because I wanted to make sense of it. Yeah. And that day sitting in the court and watching things when it was not my own case and not my own children was life changing for me because I saw the reality that these were you.

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[00:04:11] Tina Swithin: And all we were case numbers. And so that deep radical acceptance that this was, I thought I'd just walk in and tell the truth and that everybody is there to protect kids. And it was a devastating wake up call for me to see. And so my journey kind of unfolded very organically. I started a blog.

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[00:05:01] Ali Kessler: Absolutely. How long were you married?

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[00:05:10] Ali Kessler: And did you know you were being abused during the marriage?

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[00:05:24] Tina Swithin: I was being restrained. I was having my wrists grabbed and held and prevented from leaving rooms or blocked in rooms. So now I recognize that I was in fact, a victim of many different types of abuse, but the majority of it was psychological abuse, emotional abuse. Financial abuse was a big one.

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You know, we know that for so many of these narcissistic types, it's about image and impressing everyone. And so I came from a very humble upbringing, A blue-collar father and single father raised me, and I was thrust into this life that was so uncomfortable for me. We had a house that was worth about a million and a half dollars, all this money. However, I had no access to it. I was shut out of everything. One day the IRS came to my house and that day they froze everything. That was the beginning of the end of a lot of different things. I discovered that we were 1. 6 million in debt. I discovered that my entire life was a facade.

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[00:07:48] Tina Swithin: I was so confused. You're in such a fog. And so I had invited him to come with me. I was not ready to throw in the towel. I just wanted, I had believed for so long that I was the [00:08:00] problem, because that was by design. That's what he wanted me to believe. And so I remember sitting in this therapist's office and her basically telling me, I can't diagnose him, obviously.

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[00:10:04] Tina Swithin: We know better. And then you've got the issue that even if they've abused us, the court still believes that this person can be a good parent. And that is wrong. I mean, what decade are we in?

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[00:11:26] Ali Kessler: Right.

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[00:12:25] Ali Kessler: I'm probably actually involved with those people. I just didn't know that it was part of a one-month battle. Yes. Yeah. Like, yeah. Facts. Yes. Families Against court travesties and things like that.

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[00:13:51] Ali Kessler: 1000 percent does and I couldn't do anything without my family and friends. So I'm appreciative for everyone. And I appreciate it for [00:14:00] you for even getting me involved in all of it, because even just creating the awareness that there are issues, shedding some light on these topics and that's important.

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[00:16:04] Ali Kessler: I would love to call out my judges.

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[00:16:09] Ali Kessler: I had three judges touch my case in the week and Greyson was murdered and they all denied different things. And I'm pretty sure that the injunction for domestic violence wasn't even read because it was filed about 4pm, and then I got the results at 6pm, and they were probably just waiting to go to happy hour.

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[00:16:37] Tina Swithin: I would step off the bench. Nobody would have to take me off the bench. I would step down and I would dedicate every second, every waking moment of my life to ensuring that this never happened again.

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[00:16:51] Tina Swithin: How do you get back up on that bench? I don't, I'll never understand it when

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[00:17:02] Ali Kessler: Nobody said, I'm sorry. Nobody reached out to me. Nothing. It's just life goes on except. Now Greyson's not in it. Do you feel that since 2009, since this began for you, do you feel like there have been positive reform? I mean, I know Kayden's law is definitely positive, where do you think it's going?

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[00:17:39] Tina Swithin: And at this point, that's what gives me hope. I really do believe this is an issue that needs to be hit from so many different angles, legislation, accountability, the media, every different angle. There is no one size fits all approach. There's not one direction that's going to fix all of this. This issue, you know, the system is working the way it was [00:18:00] designed.

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[00:18:25] Tina Swithin: The majority of moms I know whose children have been murdered. at some point have been accused of parental alienation. And it has developed into the most lucrative industry. These are the big ticket items is this forcing children into relationships with known abusers. And that has infiltrated every square inch of our court system.

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[00:19:03] Ali Kessler: I was actually just speaking with an investigative reporter about this, and he said in some states they finally are banning it, but it's only been a couple of states that is true.

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[00:19:24] Tina Swithin: Oh, it absolutely is. And they are. If alienation were a true thing, they are doing what they are accusing the parent of doing. They're taking children from their safe parent and prohibiting them from contacting their safe parent for a minimum of 90 days.

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[00:19:51] Ali Kessler: Yeah, it's definitely hypocrisy in its finest.

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[00:19:56] Ali Kessler: It's I feel like everything just boils down to money in the end. [00:20:00]

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[00:20:03] Ali Kessler: Yeah, I always say Greyson would be alive today if I had a lot of money, sadly. Aside from parental alienations and the reunification camps, what else have you seen, that has really struck out at you, maybe a common theme? From other victims.

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[00:20:25] Tina Swithin: Aside from the pseudo concept of alienation was created by a very disturbed man to be used as a legal strategy for fathers who were abusing their children. And that father's rights movement has grown, there is a tremendous amount of money behind it. And, I always want to say, I was raised by my dad.

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[00:21:05] Ali Kessler: Yeah. All these father's right movements- I was actually just parading their Facebook page earlier today and some of the comments just make me cringe because I see memes they post and things that just talk really badly about women and say why would fathers want to hurt their children? We love them or something.

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[00:21:30] Tina Swithin: Right, right. Yeah, and they will still find a way even with that Ali, to say that it's your fault Like that is how sick a lot of these groups are. I had to get out of them. I was a mole in them I still get reports from people about what's happening there.

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[00:21:52] Ali Kessler: Oh my god,

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[00:22:12] Tina Swithin: I truly believe that.

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[00:22:24] Tina Swithin: I tell people parental rights has no business. Why is this not about children and children's rights? I don't care about your rights just because you have the ability to procreate, you are all of a sudden own a child and it's insane. It's yeah.

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[00:22:44] Ali Kessler: He wasn't on the birth certificate. That's He was literally just DNA and six months after Greyson was born, he sued for paternity and got 50 percent custody. And it was solely just because he can, is what he said, because he can.

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[00:23:01] Tina Swithin: It's about hurting you. It's a continuation of power and control.

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[00:23:13] Tina Swithin: I've seen the text messages you've shared from him and they come up in my feed every year as a memory because I've shared them and every single time it's just chilling that anyone, any so called professional in the court system could read those and think that this man was healthy enough to put a child in his care.

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[00:23:36] Ali Kessler: Yeah, clearly I was in a family law case, at the time Greyson was alive and nobody did anything about it. And I showed screenshots to the lawyers every day. So now I know you're in California and I'm curious, I know there's a lot of celebrities that also go through DV and have public cases.

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[00:24:05] Tina Swithin: There's, there's a lot of,

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[00:24:17] Tina Swithin: well, and what I can share is the reason I got my start is because of a celebrity.

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[00:24:46] Ali Kessler: That's not Billy Joel. I want to say that.

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[00:25:00] Ali Kessler: Oh, that's great.

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[00:25:04] Tina Swithin: But what I will say is so many people have this misconception that because celebrities have unlimited funds that they are able to protect their kids. And what I see happen is that when they have unlimited funds, they're targeted by even at more high level, unscrupulous professionals, because.

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[00:25:48] Tina Swithin: And so over time, they don't want to talk about it anymore. We need everyone's voice in this, and I'm so grateful. Lala Kent is one who has really [00:26:00] lent her platform to raising awareness of what's happening in family court.

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[00:26:06] Tina Swithin: Yep. Yeah, she's an amazing human. She actually came out and joined me at a protest that we organized down in Los Angeles and was walking around with their signs.

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[00:26:24] Ali Kessler: Oh, me too. I even watched the Kardashians and I see even just the stuff that Kanye put Kim through that maybe she hasn't even talked about publicly. But we see it as just witnesses and it's crazy.

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[00:26:38] Tina Swithin: have money. And one of the things I've seen also is I've been in the courtroom with celebrities and then I read how things are portrayed in the media and it has made me not trust the media at all because I know the reality. I've read the court documents. I know what is happening and then how it's portrayed is terrifying.

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[00:27:19] Tina Swithin: I was just going to say, yeah. The PR machine, you can't keep up with it, and that's not where your energy should be spent. I would rather be focusing on my kids versus on dueling media stories, and it ends up hurting all of us in family court because the media is uneducated on these issues. And so they're reporting at a surface level, and we need real journalists doing real stories on real people who are going through this.

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[00:28:04] Ali Kessler: And they had 22 different cases in their book and they all had something different, but they all had a core. It's the same core of abuse, which is very interesting. Talk to us about Divorcing a Narcissist. I know it's a series of different books and I'm going to post the links in the show notes.

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[00:28:55] Tina Swithin: My case ended up also taking a turn and [00:29:00] having a criminal trial. My ex. husband's brother was arrested for horrifying crimes against children. And so my case has the family court aspect and then the criminal court aspect. So we rewrote the book to include all of that. I also have one advice from the battlefield, which has

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[00:29:44] Tina Swithin: So really understanding how, what their communication is and then how to keep your peace and present in a way that is your authentic truth and paints you in a positive light for the court. I've written a [00:30:00] couple of children's books for kids who are going through these difficult situations.

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[00:30:17] Ali Kessler: Absolutely. What are some tips that you can give maybe some women that are in a marriage right now, possibly with a narcissist?

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[00:30:30] Tina Swithin: You know, so many people hear the reality of the court system and they say, I'm not leaving. I can protect my kids. Terrifying. I am still a firm believer that leaving is always the right decision. And here's why I've had the unique vantage point of getting emails from the moms who did choose to stay.

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[00:31:13] Tina Swithin: And out of all of the emails I get aside from tragedies is like what happened to you and what happened to Greyson and some of the most heartbreaking emails I get are from these moms who stayed. I believe that even if you leave, and even if you have 50 percent of time with your child, that is half their life to show them what healthy looks like.

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[00:31:58] Tina Swithin: If you're able to go sit [00:32:00] in court, if you're able to watch as an observer on zoom or teams, whatever they have available in your area, get to know your system. Connect with a therapist who understands trauma who understands course of control and narcissistic abuse. Not all therapists are created the same. Love all of them for what they're doing in this world, but you do need someone who truly does get it otherwise, You'll never truly come out of that fog unless you have somebody to light the way for you

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[00:32:42] Tina Swithin: About Dr. Ramani in general, she's actually a dear friend of mine. And she and I connected, I want to say about five years ago, I got invited to a dinner down in Los Angeles with a group of therapists. And I had huge imposter syndrome going, who am I to go in to sit with all these therapists and mental [00:33:00] health professionals.

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[00:33:27] Tina Swithin: She gets it at a core level because she's lived it. And this is her life passion and her work. She is one of my favorite people. I've been to her events where survivors come from all over to meet with her and she is fully present with them. She cares. She is the most empathetic person and you can almost watch healing take place when she's talking to people because she is so present and truly does.

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[00:34:01] Ali Kessler: That is an amazing tribute, and I hope she hears that.

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[00:34:08] Ali Kessler: contact with her at some point, because like I said, you're the second person that has mentioned her, and it seems that she has a lot to say about coercive control.

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[00:34:20] Ali Kessler: One more topic. I know we mentioned children because ultimately they're the reason we do all of this. What has been your experience with children that are caught in the middle and they see mommy and daddy fighting? Maybe they already separated.

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[00:34:44] Tina Swithin: For me, my daughters were two and four when my divorce started, and it's some of the most heartbreaking things.

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[00:35:19] Tina Swithin: I remember just holding my little girl and just saying, you know what, honey, it's okay. Mommy's okay. I am not sad about it. I'm sad for you. I'm sad that you had to see that. I can hear how upset you are validating them, meeting them where they are talking about emotions. My house became empathy boot camp for my friends called my house empathy boot camp because as soon as I started understanding narcissism and What it is, you know, there's a genetic predisposition.

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[00:36:10] Tina Swithin: And I would always preface, we're playing the, I know my truth game. Right? You know, your shirt's pink. And she would say, I know my truth. My shirt's yellow. And so those things so that when that gaslighting, and not just from their dad, but from anybody in life sure. Starts to creep in. My, my daughters are solid.

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[00:36:41] Ali Kessler: Right.

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[00:36:50] Tina Swithin: And so when my kids were distraught or whatever, we would find what the emotion was so they could connect with that. I am thankful because I hear some stories about. [00:37:00] Really bad therapists out there working with kids who are in that reunification mindset or revenue stream, I would say, where their focus is two parents are better than one, no matter what.

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[00:37:14] Tina Swithin: And I think God had a Therapists who believed my children, who advocated for my children, and I know that isn't common for everybody. So, if you can find a solid therapist who is child focused, it can make all the difference. But if some people can't, either they don't have access to one or they're prohibited by the courts from getting one. I tell them in that situation, go find one and you meet with that person, fill your toolbox so that you can then transfer that with your kids and take those things you're learning.

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[00:38:21] Ali Kessler: And I was like, well, I totally disagree, especially in this day where so many couples are divorced, where it's probably more the norm. And I came from a divorce family. Oh, I totally disagree. You were saying how narcissism is Genetic in some way.

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[00:39:06] Ali Kessler: So how do you get your children not to fall down that same cycle?

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[00:39:20] Tina Swithin: A lot of parents will reach out and say, I think my child's a narcissist. I'm like, they all, that is part, a lot of that is normal. It's healthy, it's development. But you know, I had a therapist who understood these dynamics and said, you need to Model empathy. And so when we were driving and we'd see a lost dog poster, I would say, gosh, how do you think that if a little girl had that dog, how do you think she feels right now, putting them in someone else's shoes?

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[00:40:04] Tina Swithin: So really helping them to see beyond their own realm and consider other people. Now I have two incredibly compassionate, my daughters now are almost 18 and almost 20.

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[00:40:24] Tina Swithin: No, no, they we have no contact. I was able to terminate his parental rights in 2019 and I had huge fear when my oldest turned 18 that he would reemerge and, he hasn't, she, she would handle her own if he did.

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[00:41:05] Ali Kessler: Yeah, as it should. I mean, they have their own free will and their own minds, but you definitely created the best possible scenario for them. So, that's all we can do, I suppose. Well, I thank you so much for talking with all of us. I know our paths have crossed before and I hope they keep crossing. I'd love to talk with you further. I'm sure there's so many different topics we can chat about along the way. But thank you for all you do and for enlightening me to this crazy world of, family court travesties and nightmares because it is mind blowing and it's so important that everyone hears about it.

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