Episode 21: The Emotional Landscape of Family Law with Insights from Seth Nelson

Seth Nelson Podcast

Ali Kessler: [: 00:00:00

Seth Nelson: Yeah. I'm Seth Nelson. First off, I'm so excited to be here. I'm just thrilled to talk to you. I so loved having you on our show.

You're one of our biggest downloads. Wow. And always happy to spread the word on an unhappy topic, but a way that it can turn positive.

i Kessler: Speaking of that, [: 00:01:00

Seth Nelson: Yeah, so I'm gonna just talk in general terms, not about any specific case.

Ali Kessler: Yes,

Seth Nelson: of course. Lawyers always have to give our little, qualifying statements, but. First off, I hear the term Greyson's law more and more. Which is a good thing. 'cause obviously the law is there to protect children. Nowhere have I ever seen, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, Ali, where it says Greyson's Law, right?

Like in the statute. But the substance of what it means is throughout the statute, which is wonderful, which we all know is. That any, you can look at a party's actions in its entirety, in its totality of the circumstance, and ultimately get protections for a child, even if that child is not directly being threatened.

hether it's been in domestic [: 00:02:00

Ali Kessler: So I'm just curious, so before Greyson's law was enacted, you were telling me if you went, had a situation and you were in court and there was evidence of abuse towards a parent, that a judge. Would just say the same thing that happened with me that, that person wasn't harming the child.

Seth Nelson: Yeah. Because to

Ali Kessler: me it seemed like common sense.

Seth Nelson: Yeah. And that's where, first off the answer is yes to your question. That would be a common uphill battle that I would have to fight and have to make a causation argument. And what I mean by that is, yes, judge, I appreciate that these actions are directed towards the mom, let's say.

st having the threat happen, [: 00:03:00

And I would have to make what's called a causation argument. So it's one step removed. It isn't directly torts the child now in law school in torts, which is harms, that's where you really learn about this concept of causation. So I'm going a long time ago for me, but it's one of those things where, okay, if a guy I.

Doesn't properly secure his boat next to a pier on a river. And it breaks loose and then it hits another boat, and then that boat sinks. And when that boat sinks, people get off the boat or are being picked up by others. But then there's an accident on that boat and then a piece of the boat floats down river and hits some, like at what point does the causation stop?

always in front of a judge. [: 00:04:00

It's not directly towards the child, but you can consider it in protecting the child. I. And we've been successful, and I know other of my colleagues have been successful in doing that.

Ali Kessler: Yeah, it always boggles my mind to just know that the restraining order was granted for me, but he was okay to have a toddler.

So like I, it just made zero sense to me. The mindset because of any human being in my mind, is hurting or harming or threatening anyone, even a dog. To me, that's an issue.

Seth Nelson: That's right. And that's the difference, which unfortunately I have to explain to clients all the time the difference between the real world and the legal world.

And unfortunately, the legal world, as through your advocacy, takes a long time to change. And it always is behind the real world.

hat? Because. We live in the [: 00:05:00

Seth Nelson: Yeah, that's a great question. The real world moves much faster than our legislative process to change laws and through our court systems to change laws.

Let's take an example. Ai, artificial intelligence now is moving at a dramatically rapid pace, and our lawmakers, and I'm not, this isn't bashing them, but our lawmakers are usually not people who are tech industry guys or women and understand ai. And so just to get laws on the books about AI, by way of example, is gonna take a long time.

And by the time that happens, AI might have already changed, right? Absolutely. So that's an industry type focus. It's it, which we all know, technology moves at a rapid pace these days. But that's why it happens. And then, I always call them the ivory tower. We have a statute that then goes to court, someone wins, someone loses, and then they appeal it.

. Did the trial judge make a [: 00:06:00

Did they get it right or wrong? As chief Justice Roberts stated during his confirmation hearing many years ago, but there's a lot of time that takes to get there in our laws, and this is gonna sound silly. And obvious are written down, and these appellate opinions are written down and the English language isn't always clear.

And you get clever lawyers that are gonna argue one way or the other. And just if I can go on a little bit about not being clear, when we try to make things more clear, sometimes we make them more ambiguous. And here's what I mean. We know that there's children and adults. There's a vagueness in between.

ctually created another one. [: 00:07:00

So we've solved one problem, but created two others.

Ali Kessler: Okay.

Seth Nelson: And that's just the form of language that, clever lawyers are gonna try to run a truck through.

Ali Kessler: Got you. I've seen it firsthand. So

Seth Nelson: I know one

Ali Kessler: more question about Greyson's Law and then we'll move on to some other topics where, have you seen some issues with it, or pushback or education wise, have judges maybe, thrown it out because they didn't know about it? Or what have you seen?

Seth Nelson: I haven't seen it where a judge or I haven't heard of a judge throwing it out 'cause they haven't known about it. Judges take things as they come to them, and so it's really a lawyer issue. Are the lawyers reading the statutes? Are the lawyers staying up to date on the latest changes in the law and then making the arguments?

ve done this for many years. [: 00:08:00

And I tend to do it over winter break 'cause it's a little bit quieter. Sure. And it's one of those things I'm like, okay, winter break time, this is what I do. Okay. I've been practicing law now for 20 years, family law for 18. I can't tell you I've read it every single year. Sometimes you're spending time with the kids and they're getting older and you wanna do some fun stuff.

But I will tell you, I don't think I've missed more than two, maybe three years out of 18, I. Where I've read the full statutes every single time.

Ali Kessler: I think as a family law lawyer, it should be that way. I know you have to probably do continued education or CLEs they call it, just to learn about new stuff because the power, our children are laying in the hands of someone representing us, and I think, that's their ultimate duty.

Seth Nelson: Absolutely

Ali Kessler: is to be, on top of

s why I focus on one area of [: 00:09:00

The courses. This is just grinding away. And if you don't love the grind, if you don't, if you can't strap yourself in a chair over winter break and read the statute to make sure you don't miss anything, then I would reconsider what you're doing.

Ali Kessler: So with that said, you've been in family law for 18 years.

Let's talk about that and let's talk about what are maybe some common themes or occurrences you've seen in family law.

Seth Nelson: Yeah, so that's a great question. The key to family law, the keys, I should say it's plural, are as follows in my mind. One, you gotta know the law and be willing to continue to learn 'cause it's constantly evolving and changing 'cause of the appellate opinions that we set.

Unlike other [: 00:10:00

I call it shifting sands. Okay, because the facts in quotes, the information that you might want to present to the court at a hearing, and it's not a fact until the judge says it's a fact. So that information you're presenting in court might be changing and evolving up or down, positive or negative for your case.

By your own client's actions. By the other client's actions, by third party's actions, up and down, right up until the hearings, right up until trial, right up until the decision maker, the judge has to make the decision. And along with those shifting sands, there's the emotional aspect of it. And there's what I call, not the just emotional aspect.

[: 00:11:00

So I say that I'm an attorney and counselor at law and I take that very seriously. The attorney part. What I do in court, the drafting pleadings, making arguments, doing my research, knowing the law, the counselor at law is the psychology of it. In my mind and what I've seen over my years is the true practitioners, the really great lawyers that I respect, they get both sides of that.

If you only get one. You're not gonna get there

or handling the situation or [: 00:12:00

Seth Nelson: It's a spectrum. So a client comes to me and they're making really bad choices. Okay. What I'm gonna do is counsel them to make better choices because once again, this is shifting sands and one, I think it's good for them. I think it's good for their kids. I think even if it's a non kid case, if they're hiding money, I'm like, no, we're gonna disclose it.

They say, I'm not gonna disclose it. I say, I'm out. Okay. But I give them kind of fair warning and I try to counsel them along the way. The attorney and counselor at law, that's part of my job. If they want to continue to argue with me, if they want to continue not to take my advice, and it's easier for me now in my career than it might have been earlier in my career because.

l them, but if they continue [: 00:13:00

If they're just not taking my advice and settling their case, or if they're not taking my advice on how to give an offer, it's their decision to give the offer or not. Right now, I'll certainly say them, I don't know why you're paying me for my advice and counsel, and then ignoring it, you're wasting your money.

So those type of things, there's more leeway. But if it's unethical, if it's harmful to children, they're not changing their behaviors. They're not taking my advice and stuff. I'm out and there. There's certain cases that I don't take because I just morally and professionally and personally don't believe in.

Their stance that they're taking, and I'm not required to take those cases.

Ali Kessler: That's great because that, like you said, I'm sure a lot of lawyers would just continue for the money. Ultimately.

Seth Nelson: I hear that from colleagues. At least we're getting paid, and I don't ever look at it that way. I look at it as.

I'm doing my [: 00:14:00

And so there's all that, but no, absolutely.

Ali Kessler: Now, like you said about rereading statutes and keeping updated and stuff, I'm just curious on a personal note, do lawyers in general family lawyers know about domestic violence? Do they research about what. That means, and maybe coercive control and those types of behaviors.

notice and opportunity to be [: 00:15:00

If someone files a petition that meets the standards, the court can take away someone else's rights and say, look, I took away your rights, but I'm gonna let you. I'm gonna hear you out within 14 days. So a lot of lawyers don't like it because it's so rushed and they don't think they can do a good job in 14 days.

And it's very difficult fact scenarios and it's stressful and you gotta clear everything off your plate to focus on that, and then your other cases get behind. So people are just like, I'm out. Talk to me about the divorce, I'll deal with it. Then. We handle domestic violence cases both on people that have been accused and people that have, are saying, I've been the victim of domestic violence, but if it's someone, let's say, that's been accused, I'm gonna look at it, and they're entitled to a good defense.

Sure.

Ali Kessler: Yeah.

then they go to the criminal [: 00:16:00

Sometimes if I don't believe the allegations and a lot of that is what I really think about it, then you know, I'll go defend them. That's my job. But if there's someone that obviously did it and they're not gonna take my advice and counsel on the. I'm only gonna hurt their case, not help 'em, and I'm not gonna really get involved in those.

Ali Kessler: What about, let's just say my case in particular. I didn't know I was being abused. I thought I was just being tormented and

Seth Nelson: ridiculed

Ali Kessler: every single day.

Seth Nelson: That's part of the psychology of the divorce.

Ali Kessler: Right?

Seth Nelson: Do you,

Ali Kessler: could you recognize that as a lawyer?

Seth Nelson: I think I have. In the past, I'm not saying I've never missed one.

Ali Kessler: Sure. Of course.

Seth Nelson: But that's part of really understanding what's happening. And in, I really stress this to any, everyone listening, is don't call your lawyer and say that your husband or wife is a narcissist. Please for the love of God. One, we hear it every day.

call me and tell me that the [: 00:17:00

And I'm not calling judges horses, I'm just mixing metaphors here. Sure. You lead the horse to water. But you don't have to make it drink. You don't have to ask the last question. Isn't that alienation or isn't that abuse? The information? The behaviors will lead to that conclusion. Let the judge come to the conclusion.

Ali Kessler: You'll notice though that a narcissist behaviors will lead you that way because it's, there's a pattern.

Seth Nelson: There is a pattern. And when you point out the patterns that it's regular reoccurring judge like clockwork, right? Sometimes that's more persuasive. It's definitely more persuasive than using the term narcissist.

Ali Kessler: I know that's a slippery slope, especially because some people consider it a personality trait and some people think it's a disorder,

Seth Nelson: right? But [: 00:18:00

Ali Kessler: right?

Seth Nelson: If you focus on the behaviors, I don't care what you call it, judge. It's not good for kids. It's not good for this relationship.

It's not good in this dissolution to marriage.

Ali Kessler: Alright, let's shift topic. Let's talk about divorce. 'cause that's probably one of the most common things that people contact you about, correct?

Seth Nelson: Yes.

Ali Kessler: Okay. So I guess let's, how do does one start the divorce process if they know that, whether it's one sided or two sided, right?

What is the first thing that they should do?

Seth Nelson: It takes two people to get married, but only one to get divorced. So I hear you on that. Interesting.

Ali Kessler: Okay.

So if one party doesn't want it, it'll will still happen.

Seth Nelson: It's still gonna happen,

Ali Kessler: right? Just take longer.

Seth Nelson: Yeah, potentially. And sometimes people stay connected in the litigation divorce process 'cause they don't want it and they wanna stay connected to their spouse.

h the process as the slowest [: 00:19:00

I'm gonna be pushing that case back. It's gonna take 30, 60, 90 days longer. Then it should, and that's three months. Maybe we can't get a trial date for another six months. So that's part of the problem. But back to your question, originally, the first thing you do. You make a list of questions that you want to talk to a lawyer about, and when you call a lawyer, you should have in mind for your very first phone call.

What are your goals for that conversation? What are your goals for that conversation? Some goals could be, I'm evaluating this lawyer on whether I want them to represent me. The goal could be, I want to understand what my rights and responsibilities are. People will just say rights. I also say, and responsibilities.

to understand the basics of [: 00:20:00

Does that match your goal to the lawyer?

Ali Kessler: Okay, that makes sense.

Seth Nelson: The second thing you should do in that conversation is ask the lawyer here, after you tell them what your goals are, how much information about my situation do you need from me? To be able to answer my questions. How much information do you need from me to be able to answer my questions?

Because then you're gonna let them lead the conversation on, okay, you wanna do a parenting plan? I need to know how many kids you have. I need to know their ages. I need to know if there's any special needs. I need you to tell me the three worst things about your co-parent and the three best things about your co-parent.

I need to [: 00:21:00

P-E-A-C-E. That's the outline. I like

Ali Kessler: that. Okay. There probably never is peace.

Seth Nelson: There never is. Hopefully you get there. But when you get to e equitable distribution, you're gonna want to know, just gimme the basics. How does it work? It's the division of assets and debts. How do you do that?

's the only way you can hold [: 00:22:00

Is it marital or non-marital? And how is that determined? Are there some assets that might have a component of both? Then you go to distribution. How do you decide who gets what? What about value? How do you determine value? Some things are easy. Bank statement tells you on the bank statement how much it is.

Car a little harder, house, a little harder. Closely held business. Even harder. How do, so you want to get a list of these basic facts and then the. Lawyers should ask you, are there any closely held businesses? What do you do for work? Do you make any money? What do your assets look like? And then when you go to alimony, it's what do you do for work?

How long are you stay at home, mom? There's these basic questions, and the reason why I'm really focused on this. In stressing this, that allows you to evaluate the lawyer. If you have a half hour consult and you talk for 25 minutes, you cannot evaluate that lawyer in five minutes. You want the lawyer to be talking more.

ise you're just telling your [: 00:23:00

They should also tell you weaknesses in your case from what they've learned. Now sometimes, and I say this, I say here's my analysis in the first six minutes of our conversation, and they laugh.

'cause you can't really do a full analysis in six minutes. But that's what you want to do for your very first thing and talk to that lawyer, but have. A list ready, and I know you mentioned the toaster, so I don't know what season, but you can go on our website and we have an AI bot that only looks at our episodes.

There's an episode out there about initial consultations and listen to it, I think will be helpful for people.

Ali Kessler: Yeah, absolutely. I know that's a main source of conflict, what I'd say during the divorce process. What is the main conflict? Is it finances? Money.

Seth Nelson: I think all those are symptoms. It's communication and control.

Ali Kessler: Communication and control.

Seth Nelson: That's usually what we're arguing about.

Ali Kessler: Because there's a lack of communication and one person wants more control.

sides, and maybe both people [: 00:24:00

A lot

Ali Kessler: of it's fear. What happens if let's say man work their whole marriage for 20 years and they had two or three children who were going into college, but the wife was a. Stay-at-home mom, how do they divide their assets? Then

Seth Nelson: the assets would be divided the same on whether or not they have kids or not, or whether or not they worked or not.

Your question, we go to alimony on what, if any, alimony will she receive based upon a 20 year marriage? What is her income? What is his income? Under Florida law, there's limitations on the percentage amount that you could get. It's a new law that just passed about a year and a half ago now. Oh, coming up on two years in July.

So when it was enacted. So what was,

Ali Kessler: can you repeat that? What is that law? Yeah, so there's

Seth Nelson: a, there's a new, we're calling it a new alimony statute. So the old alimony statute in Florida. Check your local jurisdiction. I know Ali people listen to your case, your podcast all over the country and beyond, but.

eck your local jurisdiction. [: 00:25:00

If they're living with someone and they don't have as much need, or they become self-sufficient. So permanent didn't mean permanent. And also when the payer retired, they could go back and say, Hey, I want to lower my alimony. I don't have the ability to pay. There's no more permanent alimony in new cases under Florida law, okay, there's duration, there's an amount of time, and that amount of time is defined by the length of the marriage on the upper echelons, less than 10 years three to 10 years after the length of the marriage, 10 to 20, 60%, the length of the marriage, more than 20, 75% the length.

So it's more defined now.

Ali Kessler: So it's an improvement, you think?

say it's not an improvement [: 00:26:00

Ali Kessler: Okay. True. True. I just know that I have so many friends or people that call in or listen that are going through divorce and they just say it's taking years and I just don't understand it. I'm just like what is taking so long? So what does take so long?

Seth Nelson: Like I said earlier, you can only go as fast as the slowest person or entity.

You want a lawyer that's gonna move your case forward. You need someone focused on it. They should be updating you. You should access to anything filed in the court. You should have pretty much easy access to based on the case management systems. Sometimes it takes a long time if you have to get numerous business values, if you need a guardian ad litem or a social investigation, if there's forensic accountants, if there's.

need time to do their work. [: 00:27:00

And if your lawyer's not doing that, pick up the phone, call 'em and say, I don't understand where we are and where we're going and how long it will take to get there. I'd like to sit down with you and have a litigation plan and timeframes.

Ali Kessler: Makes sense and say, what tips do you have or recommendations for couples with children in particular?

There's a

Seth Nelson: lot, but a couple of the big ones, and let's just say these are two people that can get along Yes, for the moment. Okay. Their marriage didn't work, but they're not gonna take it out on their kids. They're not gonna make 'em ponds on a chess board. And this is not, none of what I'm telling you is legal advice.

an write words, basic words, [: 00:28:00

Parents and moms and dads do not. And I think words matter. So when you sit down to talk to your children, which is the most gut wrenching, heartbreaking conversation you're ever gonna have, and you're telling them that you're no longer gonna live under the same roof, I would suggest going to a mental health counselor, maybe talking about having a script that you practice.

And you sit them down not in their bedroom where it's comfort, not in that, what I always call the creepy room with the plastic that our grandparents all had on the couches. Oh, is that do it where they play on their video games or PlayStations because they're comfortable there, but they're also doing other things, right?

nd individually we'll always [: 00:29:00

But as husband and wife or wife and wife or husband and husband, we have decided we think it's best that we no longer live in the same house or under the same roof, and we wanna let you know that this is not gonna negatively impact you. Do the best that we can help you with that. And let's just say that and listen.

They're kids and they're humans, and they're gonna want to know one thing. How does this impact me? How does this impact me? And we're gonna say, we're gonna try to limit how this negatively impacts you. And you gotta make this all age appropriate. And you might, first question is who's moving out? Or Where's my room?

And we're gonna say we haven't decided that, but for now we're all gonna live in the same house. But I think me, Seth dad is gonna move out, but I really want your guys help in looking for a new place. And I know mom, or maybe mom just chimes in and says, yeah, and I'm gonna be helping too, because we all wanna make sure you got a nice house, right?

So you try to make it about [: 00:30:00

Some nights you'll be at Dad, but you'll always be able to call them. You'll always be able to text them, whatever the case may be. But have a script and make it about mom and they say, are you getting a divorce? Yes. But that's just a legal process. That doesn't change how we love each other, and we're always gonna be family.

My friend Johnny's parents get divorced and they don't talk well. I don't know what's going on in their family, but I know about our family right

Ali Kessler: now. That all makes sense. How do you effectively come up with a parenting or time sharing plan?

Seth Nelson: We really try to make it unique to the family, and there's all different ways to quote unquote skin a cat.

ould have no parenting plan, [: 00:31:00

They're called married couples. Do you know any married couple that writes a parenting plan? No. It comes because if you get divorced or if it's a paternity case, the court requires you to have a plan. That's the default. So the goal is to get a plan, put it on the shelf, and do what's best for your kids.

Don't get wrapped up in the details of one night overnight here, trade it back and forth. Your kids aren't pawns, it all comes out in the wash. If you can't have a long-term, meaningful, loving relationship with a child with. 40% of the time, the other 10% to 50% is not gonna help. But when you come up with it, look at the age of the child, look at the parents' work schedule.

na work? What kind of things [: 00:32:00

I try to limit holiday time sharing. 'cause it messes up the regular schedule. And I think consistency and frameworks and boundaries are good for kids. But look, if you want to do it differently, 'cause it's your children, I'm not gonna get in the way of that. I'm gonna explain what the law is and what the court may or may not do, but they're your kids.

Ali Kessler: Now, how do you co-parent with the other parent if they're being difficult? If they're causing the conflict?

Seth Nelson: Yeah. That happens a lot, right? Yes. So there's a great book called Biff. It's about communication. Okay? So you guys should look it up, put it in the show notes, but it's. Brief, informative, firm and friendly.

Don't get in their drama. You give brief responses in writing, you're informative. It's, Johnny is running a fever. I think it's, I'm gonna schedule an appointment with the doctor and I'm. I'm gonna cc you on the email. I'm also gonna call and we'll let you know exactly what they say and I'll let you know immediately when the appointment is.

ke it right and the fever is [: 00:33:00

Ali Kessler: Now, piggybacking on that, I'm gonna tell you what would've happened in my scenario. Yeah, that's, that has happeneds.

So I would do that. I would say Greyson's really sick. I had made an appointment, pediatrician, whatever. I would get a response back saying that I purposely made his doctor appointment during his work. Call or work meeting and that I'm the one creating the conflict to alienate him when in fact, I made the first appointment I could because my child has 102 fever, and that's all I'm thinking about.

don't get into the back and [: 00:34:00

I was informative what I did, I apologize that you think that I did that on purpose. I'm sorry that you feel I did that on purpose, which is kind of apology, not apology. It's really how they feel. It's not necessarily the best, but I took the first appointment available. Here's what I can do to get you involved.

I hope you can make it. If not, if you can call in. If not, either way, I'll provide you with the documents, right? And I get that when people do the right thing, they're going to get this venom back. But one, it's the right thing to do, period. It's the right thing to do for your kid. It's the right thing to do for yourself.

You know it. You just can't internalize what they're doing. And ultimately, and this is not why you do it, it looks good in court,

Ali Kessler: right? Ultimately with, this went on for me in any kind of situation, anything that I did, it was always thrown back and twisted saying I did something in particular.

But

? So I have opposing parties [: 00:35:00

Right? There's your character and there's your reputation. I focus on my character 'cause that's what I can control. Reputation is what other people think of you. So the other thing of that. To not let it hit you in the gut like that is lower your expectations. Now, Ali, I have a question for you. Sure. You go to McDonald's and you're in the drive-thru and there's two cars ahead of you and you put your order in and it takes them a half hour to get to you.

Are you upset?

Ali Kessler: Yes.

Seth Nelson: Yeah. Here's my question now. Why are you upset? I'm

Ali Kessler: hungry. That's right. And I have a crying child in the back that wants his Happy meal.

Seth Nelson: All of that might be true, but I don't think that's the real reason. You're upset. I think the real reason you're upset is 'cause your expectations were not met.

to get through there in five [: 00:36:00

And by the time the main course comes out, it's been 30 minutes. Are you upset?

Ali Kessler: Depends. But I get where you're going here, our expectations. But that is why we go through fast food drive-throughs for one thing, and why we go to sit down meals for others,

Seth Nelson: right? That's right. So let's say it is a half hour different scenario, different expectations.

So I tell my clients, and I would tell people, when you talk to your former spouse or your spouse, ex-spouse to be, and you're send them that nice message about, Hey, unfortunately our child is sick and here's what I did. You should expect the venom back, expect it, it's coming. Yeah.

Because then you're not gonna be upset. You're like, yeah, I know what's coming. But it don't let it impact you.

. I had to learn to just let [: 00:37:00

Seth Nelson: Yep.

Ali Kessler: But, good, everything just became a twist

Seth Nelson: that it always is.

But to your point, you've gotta learn to expect it, evaluate it, move on.

Ali Kessler: But ultimately, I will say for people listening out there that these could be red flags because you never know what all of these behaviors would lead to, as in my situation.

Seth Nelson: You gotta keep your guard up. Absolutely.

Ali Kessler: Now I do wanna talk about something that came into Florida law like I think last year or the year before the 50 50 law.

The

Seth Nelson: presumption of 50. I know

Ali Kessler: before, yeah, so before this law, I'm assuming that it was presumed to be 50 50, but it wasn't because I know when I went, Greyson's father wasn't even on the birth certificate. We weren't even living together. We weren't dating, and he still got. 50 50.

Seth Nelson: Yeah. So how was it different?

Okay, so the old law, there [: 00:38:00

And all the other stuff that goes wrong with raising kids. So extracurriculars, right of first refusal, bunch of other stuff, communication aspects. So the presumption of 50 50 now says that the court starts with presuming. That 50 50 is gonna be the timesharing schedule. Okay. Out of 14 days, two weeks, each party, each parent is gonna get seven overnights.

Okay? Okay.

Ali Kessler: So it wasn't like that prior. Was not, because that's what they told me.

Seth Nelson: It was like that prior. But some jurisdictions and courts will be like, yeah, this judge is a 50 50 judge. You gotta really work hard to change that. Others were like, the judge sometimes says 50 50, sometimes does not. So it depended where they started.

don't think this issue that [: 00:39:00

The one that you wanted, you had to prove to the judge. By what's called a preponderance of the evidence that your parenting plan was best for the kid. Preponderance of the evidence is the lowest burden of proof we have in the law. So think of those scales of justice, and you prove your case just by a little bit.

That's preponderance of the evidence. You should then, when your case, now the next one is clear and convincing evidence. That's the next burden, which is more, and I don't wanna put percentages, but to make it. Understandable. Let's just say 51% is proponent of the evidence. 70%, 75% maybe is clear and convincing evidence.

[: 00:40:00

We always had to prove preponderance of the evidence. Now, I believe some judges are treating that presumption, preponderance of the evidence as if it's beyond a reasonable doubt, and that's what I think. It will have to get worked out in the appellate courts over the years to come.

Ali Kessler: So it's making it harder for families.

Maybe that, 50 50 might not be the best situation

Seth Nelson: in some cases in front of some judges. It makes it harder because I believe those judges are misapplying the standard that I have to overcome. To prove to them what's in the best interest of the child. So yes, I believe so. Why

Ali Kessler: did, why did they vote this in?

ked me a political question. [: 00:41:00

Exactly what I tell my clients not to do. I don't trade money for kids. They're separate issues.

Ali Kessler: No, politicians are. They run games. I'll scratch your back if you scratch mine.

Seth Nelson: And I get, when you're going to court, you don't wanna settle a parenting case and give that compromises away if you're not gonna get.

If you have to go to court anyway and argue about the money. So I get when people say we're settling everything or nothing, I encourage my clients to settle the most we can and whatever's left, we'll let the judge decide.

Ali Kessler: Gotcha. Alright, that's a lot of topics here in Florida and it looks like there have been some positive and negative changes over the last five years.

And do you see anything happening next?

jor shifts in Florida family [: 00:42:00

Ali Kessler: That's good to hear. I'm always, interested in talking to my local politicians, even just amending Greyson's Law because I feel like there are things that needed to be added back in that were originally in the first round, that were cut out just in, and I do believe that training should be mandatory for judges and lawyers so that we can all do what's actually, what's best for the children.

Seth Nelson: Ali, you get that passed, let me know. I'd love to teach that to you.

Ali Kessler: I will let you know.

Seth Nelson: Okay. Keep me posted.

Ali Kessler: Yeah, definitely. And then I have a few others in my mind about when you disclose information for your parenting plan, like finances, that you should also have to disclose if there is a firearm in the home.

nything else. Yep. Because I [: 00:43:00

Seth Nelson: Absolutely.

Ali Kessler: Okay, so real quick, just to wrap up, do you have any last minute tips for someone looking to hire a family law attorney? What should they look for when they're doing their initial search?

Seth Nelson: So in that first interview. When you're interviewing that lawyer and talking to them, you should ask them for referrals.

Ali Kessler: Referrals, okay.

Seth Nelson: If they're not willing done that, willing to give you a referral. I don't think you should take them.

Ali Kessler: Yeah. I guess they do that on job interviews all the time.

They ask for a referral. That's interesting.

Seth Nelson: Wait. I'm sorry. I wanna be very clear or testimonial. No. I said it the wrong way, so I'm glad you said that. You should ask them to refer you to other lawyers. Ah, sorry, I didn't say that properly. When you're talking to them, you should say, are there any other lawyers in our community that you respect that I should call?

Ali Kessler: Okay.

Seth Nelson: If the lawyer doesn't want to give you a name, I would not hire them. Interesting. And you should also tell them, Hey, I'm talking to these lawyers. Will you please in confidence, tell me what you think about them? And I do that. I ask, are you talking to any of the lawyers? And here's what I tell 'em, Ali.

Sometimes they wanna tell [: 00:44:00

Ali Kessler: Okay. So you don't think that some lawyers will just purposely, talk shit about someone just because they want the business?

Seth Nelson: I think they will, but if they don't give you the name of someone else to call. I see. That's the issue.

Ali Kessler: I gotcha.

Seth Nelson: You want a lawyer that doesn't need your case.

Ali Kessler: That makes sense. Yep. That's, that means they're not gonna be just in it for the money. They wanna actually do what's right.

Seth Nelson: You would hope so.

You

Ali Kessler: hope so. Yeah, I guess that's what we all hope for. Alright, I really appreciate you speaking with us. I'm sure I could keep going and maybe we'll have a part two sometime. Sounds great. In the near future, but thanks again. And just real quick, what counties do you service?

Seth Nelson: So I've helped, I've had cases all over Florida.

here's an expense to that of [: 00:45:00

We're getting some cases in Sarasota. Tampa Bay region and growing up from there. Have cases in Orlando. Okay,

Ali Kessler: great.

Seth Nelson: Anything I can do to help. And we have, like you mentioned, how to split up Toaster a divorce podcast about saving your relationships. So if you're into podcast, which I'm assuming you are, if you're listening, check it out.

If it's helpful, keep listening. If it's not, don't, it's really simple.

Ali Kessler: Listen to my episode on how to split a toaster, which I think we did. I don't know, it's probably been about two years now. I.

Seth Nelson: Yeah, that's crazy. Yeah, it was great. We might have to have your back.

Ali Kessler: Yeah, absolutely. Alright, I'll put all of your contact info in the show notes.

Once again, thank you so much.

Seth Nelson: Yep. Thanks for having me.

Ali Kessler: Alright, talk soon. Bye.

Seth Nelson: Bye.