Episode 26: Navigating Trauma and Healing: A Deep Dive with Dr. Lisa Dawn Fox

Dr. Lisa Fox podcast

Ali Kessler: [: 00:00:00

With a doctorate in transformative studies and decades of experience in personal healing, she helps those affected by coercive control, emotional suppression, and broken trust reconnect with their voice, their clarity and truth. Whether you're in the midst of unraveling relationships, questioning your own patterns, or simply just seeking more inner alignment, this conversation will resonate with you.

So thank you so much, Lisa, for joining us today. It's so nice to finally meet in person.

ly. I'm glad we were able to [: 00:01:00

Ali Kessler: So I would love to start with you just sharing a bit about your journey, who you are, how you got into this, and we'll go from there.

Dr. Lisa Fox: You know, this is actually my third career. If anybody had ever told me that I would have three careers, you just can't comprehend that. Back when I started practicing, what you did for your life is what you did for your life. And I actually have a doctorate in diabetic limb salvage and wound treatment.

Oh, wow. So I'm a retired surgeon. Wow. I did that. Yeah, I did that for 10 years. I loved, it was probably one of three in the Southwest that did what I did, and it really came down to advocacy. Yes, I loved the surgery. Yes, it was really rewarding, helping diabetic patients, and not only diabetic patients, but that was the majority. I would see motorcycle accident victims and the such.

s that saw them on a regular [: 00:02:00

And so we're not really sure what caused it, but he had a central auditory processing disorder and didn't understand the spoken word, so it was a lot of intensive therapy for him. And my second child, who was five at the time, he also had a learning challenge with an oral motor dysfunction, and there was only one of me.

ds of the two in the middle. [: 00:03:00

Amazing. He is very successful at what he does. And the third that was born with the central auditory processing issue, he designs and build sets all over the world. He, amazing. Got a great scholarship at USC and graduated with a degree in technical direction. And so when people ask me. Do you regret giving it up, retiring from surgery?

ing that I would ever regret [: 00:04:00

And it was only because I quit practicing surgery that I was able to give the bookends what they needed also to thrive and to be constructive, lovely individuals who really touch this world with their beauty and their talent. Yeah. And so then, you know, through that I was volunteering at a big mega church.

I was in women's ministries. I was raising up women leadership, helping them find their voice, helping them figure out what it was they were passionate about, and we just had a beautiful program and somewhere in there, what I didn't expect was that I would have women coming to me to try to figure out what was wrong with them, to try to figure out why they were having problems in their marriage.

few women that were in very [: 00:05:00

And if you're actually benefiting them, oh my goodness. Or if you should just go back to work and we should hire a nanny, that would do a better job. I mean, that is just like the tip of the iceberg. And I can remember walking through all of that and knowing we are all born for such a time as this that I could have been born at any time in history, but I was born right now and there's a specific work that I was created to do and that in that there are struggles and trials that we have to go through to be prepared for [00:06:00] that challenge and for that life work. And when I was working with those women, I can remember saying, please do not let this be my marriage. Do not let this be my marriage. 'cause I know what you do. So please. And unfortunately it ended up being my marriage in spades.

I mean, I was married for 15 years, Murphy's Law. Right? Isn't it? Murphy's Law? And you know, and, and a lot of people believe in manifesting, but I'm like, I did not manifest that. Yeah. Nobody manifests their tragedies.

That's for sure. Right, exactly. And so I honestly, for the first 15 years of my marriage, I thought I was going crazy. Like I did not know what was happening. But I did find myself resonating with what these women were going through. Like I. I am doing what I do because I'm trying to figure out how to be a better wife.

t I'm having challenges. And [: 00:07:00

And we went in and I let them know what happened. And what came back was a year and a half of discussing communication styles. And through that I was like, I am walking out of these therapy sessions and I feel like I'm. I'm going crazy still. Dug my heels in, did some research. Really grateful for my medical and surgical background and my BA in psychology because I think I was able to access and understand a lot of information.

llege folder with a document [: 00:08:00

Okay. And so this was his way of trying to slide something over to the therapist , in a tongue in cheek way to say, last week Lisa said, we've been here for a year and a half discussing communication and we don't have a communication issue. And I had just gotten enough grounding under me that I had said to this therapist, listen, you've labeled me as a vacillator.

I'm not a vacillator. When an individual does things that hurt you and harm you and are devastating. It is a normal human reaction to pull away for protection. Sure. As a loving wife, when it seems that there has been amends, an apology and repentance, then yes, I'm leaning into that because I do want a marriage that is healthy and restored.

So this whole idea, this, [: 00:09:00

And I just looked at him, I said, and you've labeled him as a pleaser. He's not a pleaser. He is a liar. And he lies because he likes to lie. He lies because he wants to do what he wants to do and he doesn't wanna be accountable to anybody. This isn't an issue of being concerned about how I might take something he's doing.

bandaids, which [: 00:10:00

I thought that it could just be something between you and I, the therapist and him, and every week we could rip off a bandaid and then we could go to that page. In the presentation folder that I gave you, and we could read the details of what she's doing that she really needs help to fix, for us to have a good marriage.

Okay. So he was placing all the blame on you? Yes, yes. And it was at that point that my therapist , saw him accurately because he had snowed my therapist. They're very good, very charming. Very believable. And I can remember the therapist looking at me, but talking to him and saying, you have a lot of narcissistic tendencies and if you looked at my ex and his behavior, you are, you what?

ome. 'cause when I graduated [: 00:11:00

And we were just told that it was such a zebra that you weren't gonna see it, so don't worry about it. Right? It took me all of 10 minutes to do a search and go, oh, I am in a lot of trouble and my kids are in a lot of trouble. And that started my deep dive and that started my laying down healthy boundaries because.

I thought if I start implementing healthy boundaries, could there be change? And I invested in that for three or four years. And as I got stronger and I started speaking and using my voice, my ex. Escalated to physical assault and battery, and that's when I knew that I needed to prepare to get out.

And then I just did a deep dive to start preparing to get my family out safely. Right. And in doing it, were your kids young at the time? My kids at that time were, , 9, 12, 15, and then my oldest was in college.

Okay. [: 00:12:00

Honestly, most of us think, and society tells us still, and a lot of the laws in this country and around the world still tell us that unless he hit you. It's not abuse, right? We're still coming to a place where, I mean, coercive control just became a criminal offense in Queensland. Think it's the first country in the world to actually criminalize coercive control.

ake it to that level just to [: 00:13:00

Dr. Lisa Fox: No. And when I tell until it's, until it is, and when I tell people, you will never, if you do not know coercive control, you will never see it. But once you see it, you will never unsee it. It is one of those things. It's very, you know, part of coercive control is gaslighting. Yep. Right. We're bringing everybody to the table so that we're all working from the same definition.

nfidelity because they don't [: 00:14:00

'cause Ali, a lot of us, we are trauma squared, right? Do you know what Trauma squared is? No. Trauma squared is where you have trauma in your childhood. You've had abusive behaviors put upon you and experienced abuse in your childhood, and you grow up and that's what you know. Right? And so it's normalized, it's normalized.

dividual. And that's why you [: 00:15:00

And you are a beautiful mirror and image to the world for him. Right. Yeah.

Ali Kessler: So how do you define betrayal in an intimate relationship?

Dr. Lisa Fox: For me, betrayal is a very broad category for me. There are experts in the field that come from a sexual addiction perspective. Okay. And that because of the sexual addiction, the porn, the masturbation, the prostitutes, the having sex with male.

he manipulation, the hiding, [: 00:16:00

But my training informs me due to the patriarchy and misogyny that is embedded in our culture and society worldwide, that there are a lot of individuals that walk through this life with a belief that they are entitled. Right. Of course. They're entitled and they have the right to narcissism. The right to what?

ng that is being done to you.[: 00:17:00

Or against you that you have no knowledge or informed consent. Right. So it's not just someone cheating on the other. Absolutely not. Involves financial abuse, using the finances to control you, leaving you with very little money in your account, not allowing you to have your own account. Right. So that's like coercive control.

So would you say they go hand in hand? Yes they do. I believe they do. Absolutely. So obviously if you're being, if you know in a relationship where coercive control is prevalent, you are being betrayed. Yes. You are. In my case, I wasn't together with Greyson's father. Mm-hmm. I was a betrayal of a different type of relationship.

multiple individuals before [: 00:18:00

Could actually be happening. She must be exaggerating. It's just incomprehensible to them. And the reason it's incomprehensible is for the same reason we didn't see it. Like most human beings in this world are kind, loving, compassionate human beings. And when you have that mindset, it is very , it's confirmation bias is what it is, right?

is expressing. And I do see, [: 00:19:00

I honor all relationships. Sure. Cisgender, homosexual, lesbian, gay, queer. Just honestly, to be very honest, those relationships have a much higher incident abuse than cisgender couples. Interesting. And for me, abuse is abuse. Yeah. And every individual in this world was created in the image of God, and we are called to love and it is very discouraging to me.

In this world that people that were called to love are a lot of the first people to judge. And I just know that that's not how we are to move forward. So when I'm speaking about women, please don't misunderstand me. I am only speaking and using the word women because that's who I deal with mostly.

ecause they're in a place of [: 00:20:00

Because you get to a place where it's easier to go along to get along because when you stood up for yourself, the beginning, which all of us did in one way or another, using our voice or defending ourselves, [00:21:00] it never went well. Right? And it never turned out well. And we ended up in a conversation of.

Circular. A circular conversation, a conversation of word salad or ending up needing to comply with any kind of demand. Usually it's sexual in nature, and we just got to a point where we said, I. I'm not gonna be heard. I don't have a voice and I'm just gonna do what he wants to do to get it done and over with so we can just get it done and over with, right?

Because there's no point in fighting. There's no point in standing for myself. So women that get to me, they've lost their voice if they had it. When I give them a feelings list, Allie, they are shocked that there are more than five feelings. They're like, yeah. There are all these feelings. Yes, there's all these feelings.

chaos. And making peace for [: 00:22:00

Right. That's, that's what we did. Right? So when I give them the needs list , they don't know what their needs are because they haven't been able to have them. Right. So that's where we start. If there's physical assault and battery involved, we start with the safety plan, right? Of course. I mean, and there usually is, but what practices or questions help people see the truth of a harmful dynamic that they've normalized?

hey take off the blinders, I [: 00:23:00

And that's the psychoeducation. I don't do trainings and workshops and cohorts on gaslighting. I do it a 12 week series on it. Oh wow. Which really trains you on what kind of gaslight is your partner. And usually they're an equal opportunity gaslight when it comes down to it. Right, right, right. And then I go here are the ways.

These are the forms of gaslighting, and this is your toolbox on how you deal with the gaslighting. So when they get to a place, I will ask them, I'd like you to participate and enroll in the gaslighting workshop, the gaslighting cohort. Okay. So it's possible for someone to rebuild trust, not just with their partner, but with themselves, and not necessarily always have to leave a relationship.

e relationships what happens [: 00:25:00

Where did your bonus go? And our gas lighter is saying no. What are you talking about? I wasn't flirting with her. What bonus? I didn't get a bonus. And so. There comes a place where, because we believe that this person we are with is meant to love and protect us, we have to come to where we, our gut knows something's off.

d in my best interest, which [: 00:26:00

We decide that it's us, that we are broken, we're not seeing things clearly, and we disconnect our brain from our gut. And that starts the process of cognitive dissonance because right, learning to trust your gut is hard as well. It is very hard. And that is where we do a lot of work. I do a lot of work letting a woman know.

Or a man. No, your gut didn't abandon you. You just have to start listening again. Because as a coach, which is different than therapy, which is why I chose coaching, is my inherent belief is that my client knows themselves best. They don't know they do. So I hold that for them, but they know themselves best.

d? Do you feel like you're a [: 00:27:00

Right? And that seems, and they can go hand in hand. So I will say that. They do. Absolutely. They absolutely do.

Ali Kessler: So what does it mean to find your inner voice?

Dr. Lisa Fox: What does it mean to find your inner voice? That's a great question. You know, when you find your inner voice initially, it's very fine. 'cause when I have women that are listening to their gut and listening to their inner voice, you know, we have more of those.

Neurons in our gut than we do our brain. So, a lot of us were raised on those princess fairytales with the butterflies and we were led to believe as women that meant that this was, oh, this was love at first sight. This is, this is, oh, I'm feeling the butterflies when actually. That feeling is your warning system.

t something is wrong, right? [: 00:28:00

Yeah, well it's definitely scary, especially if maybe your gut once steered you in the wrong direction. Trying to get that back. Mm-hmm. May be difficult as well. And it is, well, when, when I explain to women, and most of us will say, oh yeah, I definitely had those butterflies. Nobody taught it.

arning, Mr. Roger. Run. Run. [: 00:29:00

So when I have a woman who's going through something and I hear from her and she says, my gut just failed me. My gut just failed me today. My intuition just failed me today. And I go, well, what happened? She explains to me what happened and she fully listened to her gut. She made great, wise, discerning decisions, and I'm all, no, you didn't.

You didn't. Your gut didn't fail you. You had this decision to make. These are the facts you had, and you didn't have all of them. You did what you needed to do and this is the discerning choice you made. Yeah. You listen to your gut. They don't even realize initially that they're actually listening to their gut 'cause it's so foreign to them.

nd soul mean? Is that shadow [: 00:30:00

Behind what the shadow is covering. Right? And for me, our soul is our essence. It's our mind, our body, our soul, our spirit. That is what we're meant to resonate with. So for me, the branding of my business, my name comes directly from the fact that I wanna bring you from the shadows. I wanna help you see clearly.

I wanna bring clarity to your spirit, your mind, your body and soul, so that you can move forward and reclaim your voice. Find and establish and know with a grounded strength what your values and beliefs are so that you can start making informed choices that are best for yourself.

o other places and is still, [: 00:31:00

Dr. Lisa Fox: Yes. You know, some of us are really lucky. Right. I was very blessed and very lucky that I did not have to.

Once. Once it was established what was going on, I was referred to the right person. Most of us end up in marriage counseling for years, years. We are faced with the fact that those marriage therapists, aren't equipped at all with regular marriage counseling rather than to even recognize where there's abuse within the relationship and a power and control differential.

g what the heck is going on. [: 00:32:00

You know, that was pretty good. But if you had just done this, then it would've been really great for me. I mean, we are constantly being told we are falling short of the mark and we need to do more. I will say Sorrowfully, women are going 5, 10, 15 years round and round in circles in an abusive relationship with a coercive controller, and they are just getting more devastated.

ually seek help from a coach [: 00:33:00

You got it. And maybe hand in hand with a therapist to sort of work together. Absolutely. And I work with therapists together is a partnership with clients. And there are Allie, there are clients that when I meet with them initially, it's for me to discern are we a good fit for each other? I know you're trauma bonded, we're all trauma bonded, but are you at a place where you are able to do the work and move forward?

And there are times that I will have to tell a client, I am not abandoning you. I am here, but you need more intensive care right now. And I think that you may need some psycho. Pharmaceutical help. Help, right? To balance yourself so that you can start working well with your psychotherapist and let's get some traction and grounding underneath you and I am here.

he same time. And then there [: 00:34:00

Let's work together to find you a psychotherapist, because I believe that we need to do a little work there before you're ready to work with me. Sure. There's definitely dual. Disorders that can happen at the same time. And treating them together is really, they say even, you know, in rehabs, there's, you're not just fighting addiction, you're also probably fighting other mental health issues and dealing with it both hand in hand is probably the best way.

taring at my closet wall and [: 00:35:00

And when I went to that psychotherapist, top of her field. Wonderful woman , we get through everything that's going on. At the very end, she says to me, I don't like working with women like you. Sorry. I'm like, what? What? What? She said, well, this is the problem. You are a girl that the glass is always half full and you are the most challenging to work with because you believe that you can handle this with self-care on your own.

I need to admit you. Because [: 00:36:00

And I said, okay. I trust my therapist that referred me to you. I will do what you say. I will do everything you say. And I did. I did need the medical support 'cause I was in a massive depression and I didn't even know it. Right.

Ali Kessler: Well, didn't know. I think a lot of people would probably not be able to recognize if they've never had it before or seen it before firsthand.

So now I have a really important question. Okay. What does real healing look like on the other side of betrayal?

able to remain grounded and [: 00:37:00

Being able to step back and say, that caused me confusion. Why did that cause me confusion? To be able to assess that for yourself and go, that's because what just came at me or what was just done to me was not healthy. And being able to be at a place where you clearly understand what your non-negotiables are.

Recognize them and recognize them. Absolutely. And then make a decision. Based on those values and beliefs and your non-negotiables as to what you will accept and will not accept, and having the commitment that you will never betray yourself again. And that's healing. That is, healing and growth.

nd survival to stability, to [: 00:38:00

You have grown, your mind has transformed, and you see things clearly that you won't accept again because they just don't resonate with you anymore. Right. And when we get to that place, we are really great at implementing all of those new value systems and belief systems in almost every relationship.

The place that it becomes, the stickiest, where we have more time that needs to be invested is usually with our family of origin. It's really hard. It's really hard. So when you get to a place where you're able to live out and break that generational cycle within your family of origin, again, you can rest.

ork. And then there are some [: 00:39:00

Sure. And so when that happens, a lot of my clients will say, I feel like I'm right back where I started from. Right. But they noticed it and they recognized it, which is the difference. Yes. It's absolutely. So that's what will help them move on and heal and mm-hmm.

And make the choice. Right, because they can't, because once you come to that place, when you come to the place where you.

right? The Body keeps score. [: 00:40:00

I talk about mind, body all the time and the connection. Yeah. I mean, it's not unavoidable. And so when I have, and most of us, if not all of us, we have some sort of those issues. So when I tell my clients, then I do not want you to be alarmed. Now that you are reconnecting that your symptoms.

lot of time on our physical, [: 00:41:00

For our physical and psychological wellbeing. Right? Yeah. 1000%. I mean, after my son died, I had just the weirdest ailments that just pop up every day. It's like my, body knew something else was going on, so, yeah. It's, it's actually quite amazing how all that works, and that's why we talk to people like you that can help us channel the, the growth, the healing, the positivity, so our mind and body can work together in harmony.

Absolutely. Well, thank you so much for coming on and sharing all of this with our listeners. It's been enlightening to say the least.

My privilege. It's really my privilege, Ali. Well, I'm sure I'll get a lot of questions for you, and I'll put your contact info and website info into our show notes.

n the website. Okay. There's [: 00:42:00

Do virtual if they're not in your state? I do all of my, I work internationally.

Okay, perfect. I do everything via their virtual. Okay, perfect. So, and I have, I have clients in Italy, Switzerland, New Zealand, Australia. Because when they need you, they find you. And I just, I know there were a lot of horrible things about COVID, but yeah, us in the helping professions, being able to go virtual.

Right. I think it has been a huge, for sure, huge asset to our field because now you can find, you can get help wherever you are, whenever you're Yeah. At any time, right? Yeah. Mm-hmm. I love it. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So yes, all of my sessions are virtual. They're all via Zoom. Okay, great. And what my 30 minute session is for is 'cause I wanna make sure I'm the best fit for you.

Right? Yep. If I'm not the [: 00:43:00

Ali Kessler: Wonderful. That's great. I appreciate you coming on and I will be in touch.

Dr. Lisa Fox: Absolutely. It was really great connecting with you, Ali. Thank you very much for having me on today. Absolutely. I really appreciate. Absolutely.

Alright, thanks Lisa. You're welcome.