Episode 18
Episode 18: Empowering Domestic Violence Victims with Web-based App: Sheri Kurdakul Introduces Victims' Voice
This is your go-to Podcast, where we help parents navigate the complexities of family life. Hosted by Ali Kessler of Greyson’s Choice, we’ll cover everything from understanding domestic violence to navigating the legal system, finding the right therapists, life hacks, family law, mental health, custody battles, and how to protect children in dangerous situations.
In this episode of Grey Minds Think Alike, host Ali Kessler speaks with Sheri Kurdakul, the founder and CEO of Victim's Voice. Sheri shares the story behind the creation of Victim's Voice, a groundbreaking web-based app designed to help domestic violence victims collect and store legally admissible evidence. This tool aids victims in documenting their experiences safely and securely, ensuring that their abusers can be held accountable. Sheri also discusses the development process, the legal considerations, and the impact the app has had on users and legal professionals. This episode is a must-watch for anyone interested in technology, victim advocacy, and legal reforms.
About Sheri Kurdakul
Sheri Kurdakul is the Founder of EBinRA, Inc., dba VictimsVoice and serves as its Chief Executive Officer. Sheri focuses on making a measurable difference in the lives of victims and survivors so their abusers can be held accountable and they can begin to reclaim and rebuild their lives in safety and on their own terms. Formerly, she was the Managing Partner of Holistic Business Solutions, a small business and nonprofit consulting firm. As a survivor of child abuse and domestic violence, she has devoted herself to ensuring victims of discrimination, harassment, and abuse are heard, believed, and able to seek legal justice. She resides in Central New Jersey with her husband and daughter, as well as a myriad of adopted furry family members.
VictimsVoice was designed for legal admissibility, allowing users to document information that holds up in court, investigators to collect relevant evidence, and prosecutors to build a stronger case. It’s built to meet HIPAA, VAWA, VOCA, and FVPSA regulations, ensuring the strictest privacy and security standards are upheld.
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About Ali Kessler
Ali Kessler is a writer, marketing professional, passionate parent advocate, and founder of Greyson’s Choice, a 501(c)(3) created to raise awareness about the risk of domestic abuse on children. Greyson’s Choice was founded by Ali Kessler in memory of her sweet, vibrant, and fearless 4.5-year-old son, Greyson, who was murdered by his biological father in a murder-suicide during an unsupervised, court-approved visit in Ft. Lauderdale, FL, in 2021. This came just hours after her petition for a domestic violence injunction was denied by a Broward County judge, citing that the “petitioner has failed to allege any overt acts by the respondent which would constitute domestic violence under Florida Statute.” Ali’s advocacy efforts culminated in successfully passing Greyson’s Law during the 2023 legislative session. This bill now requires the court to consider threats against ex-partners or spouses when making child visitation and custody determinations in the court, expanding to include the following factors: evidence of domestic violence, whether a parent in the past or currently has reasonable cause to believe that they or a minor child is, or has been in imminent danger of becoming the victim of domestic/sexual violence by the other parent, even if no other legal action has been brought or is currently pending in court.
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Transcript
Sheri Kurdakul
[:[00:00:36] Sheri Kurdakul: Thank you. Thank you so much for having me.
[:[00:00:48] Sheri Kurdakul: It is an interesting story. So, so many people who start nonprofits or businesses in this area, I too am a survivor. I'm a survivor of child sexual assault, child abuse, domestic violence, adult sexual assault. But I'm also a survivor of criminal, civil, and multiple family courts. The tool itself, Victim's Voice started when my daughter was 10 years old. My youngest daughter, she came home from school one day telling me that a friend of hers had been getting picked on. And so the friend went through the normal channels that they're always told to do, tell the teacher, and then she told the teacher nothing really happened.
So she told the guidance counselor. And then word got out that she was telling. So the abuse got more intense and my daughter came home and said, I wish there were a way that she could report it privately. I wish there were a mobile app. So me being the mother that I am, I looked at her and said, then build one.
So she proceeded to go in her room and for hours, did hour of code, learn the basic principles of coding, and then used a coding platform to build a science. How old was she? She was 10.
So most people can't even code as adults, so that's amenable right there.
I think they come out of the womb coding these days.
That's true. So she built it for a science fair project and of course won elementary division, won all kinds of communications awards. We were invited out on the West coast to speak at a developer's conference. We are located on the east coast and she's very much an introvert. So after all the attention, she was on radio show, she was in newspapers, all kinds of stuff.
When we were speaking at the developer's conference, there were a lot of q and a after the session about other applications and that's really when the light bulb went off for me. I had worked in tech spaces always in marketing departments, but. I never really put two and two together. I worked with enterprise technology and being a survivor working with technology, it just really never occurred to me to put the two together until this happened, and that's really where Victim's Voice was born.
Her app was called The Zebra App. It was an acronym for Zoe Ending Barriers in Reporting Adversity. And the only thing she said to me was, you can use whatever you want. You just can't use my name. So we dropped the Z off and that's where ARA comes from. It's a nod to her. So ARA is our corporate name.
[:[00:04:14] Sheri Kurdakul: She's 19. She's a freshman in college.
[:[00:04:21] Sheri Kurdakul: Fine art.
[:[00:04:23] Sheri Kurdakul: Not technology.
[:She had.
[:So being involved in this has definitely had an impact in how she looks at relationships and how she deals with things like that.
[:I do digital marketing. I, who exactly is the demographic of Victim's Voice, who should use it? And we'll go from there.
[:Because as we know, abuse cycles, you start to doubt yourself. You start to make the excuses. You start to cover up for the abuser. You're not quite sure if it qualifies for abuse. It's that real Grey area until things start to escalate so much that by the time. You realize that you're really in trouble.
All this historical information has already happened, but you have no record of it,
[:[00:06:31] Sheri Kurdakul: So we always tell people, if you're feeling uncomfortable about what's going on, it never hurts to document. And that goes to our tagline of legally admissible documentation really doesn't matter until it does.
[:[00:07:13] Sheri Kurdakul: And we see this particularly when people are trying to get their first protective order. Oftentimes that one single incident out of context doesn't rise to the level of getting a permanent restraining order. So you'll get the initial because they give you the benefit of the doubt, right?
They give you that protective order until you have that hearing, right? But then when you have the hearing, then your abuser has the opportunity to come and speak up as well. And so that one incident may seem silly in the eyes of others out of context, but if you have all the recorded context of everything that's happened that's led up to that one incident, then it makes sense then Exactly.
You see where the real danger is. Yeah.
[:[00:08:11] Sheri Kurdakul: So there's nothing to download. It is, we call it an app, but it's not actually an, like you would think of one if you download something, there is a financial trail.
Very true. Even if it's a free app, there's a financial trail that says, oh, you've downloaded this free app, so we have nothing to download. The other reason is because not everyone has access to a smart device or they're smart devices or being tracked. So ours is a web-based app, meaning that you can use any system that can connect to the internet to access your account.
And so you can use a workplace computer. You can use a school computer. You're not violating any computer usage policies because we're not downloading and storing any information on any local device. So someone can gain a, an annual subscription either by purchasing their own or they can go to any of our partner members and get one for free.
And if they go to a partner member listed on our website, those partner members are obligated to give away a license for free. That license then opens up the ability to document all of your evidence, so it walks you through a series of pre-vetted, guided questions. Okay. I say pre-vetted because we have run them through the gamut of prosecutors and judges and law enforcement.
Victim advocates, social workers, you name it. They've reviewed it and given their feedback to make sure that the questions are worded in such a way that someone who English is not their first native language. They may be highly uneducated. They may have some developmental disabilities. They can still understand the question being asked.
If they have site issues there, it, the screen readers can read it so it's a DA compliant and they can answer the questions. Perfect. We allow for image uploads and document uploads, and our biggest complaint by far is by you don't allow me to upload audio or video. No, we don't. So no audio,
[:[00:10:38] Sheri Kurdakul: no.
[:[00:10:42] Sheri Kurdakul: So we are located in Pennsylvania. Okay. We're a one 30 consent state, so as long as you're part of the conversation, it's legal to record someone. Our neighboring state, which happens to be about 10 minutes down the road from me, which is Pennsylvania, is an all party consent state and many states in the US are all party consent states.
Pennsylvania, it is a felony offense to record without expressed consent of every incident where you're recording. Okay. I don't know any abusers who are gonna give expressed consent,
[:[00:11:24] Sheri Kurdakul: So what we advise people is if you have a recording that has been legally obtained.
Then you can document that you have that recording and where that recording is stored, so that links where that information is to everything else that you're already documenting.
[:[00:11:54] Sheri Kurdakul: I like everyone else, documented everything that was happening to me. Unfortunately, most of the time when you're in the thick of it, you are documenting from an emotional perspective and you are not stopping to think and you probably don't know all the laws involved, so you're not thinking, oh, I should document this, or I should document that.
So if someone puts their hands around your neck. And cuts off your blood flow or your oxygen flow and maybe you pass out and you come to, you may not think to document that you have been a recipient of non-fatal strangulation attempt or non-fatal strangulation. So if an abuser comes in and kicks the dog.
On his way to slapping you around. And I use, he just, in a general sense, I'm not singling anyone out, of course, but if an abuser comes in and kicks the dog on the way to knocking you around, you are not gonna think to document that the dog was abused as well. Okay. If you are thrown down the stairs and you have to go to the doctor because you banged your head up really bad.
You may go to the doctor and tell the doctor that you slipped and fell in the bathtub because you're fearful of what may happen if you disclose to the doctor. But if you document in the app what happened and you told the doctor this because you were fearful. Now, if it ever gets into a hearing situation or a disclosure situation, now when you go to the doctor and they record the doctor records slip and fell in the bathtub.
But you are saying, oh, he pushed me down the stairs. There's a discrepancy and that's pretty much gonna get thrown out. But now you have the description documented that there was, this is why I told the doctor what I told them, and this is why I am disclosing what happened it now in this hearing situation.
Gotcha. So we're helping them document things like weapons. Most people think of weapons as guns or knives. They don't think that a hairbrush can be a legally can be a weapon. So we guide them through the questions of information that need to be captured, and then if they're also uploading images of a broken glass table, but there's no pictures of any bruises or anything like that, they can show that there was a violent scene or geolocating date and timestamping every entry.
So that. Each incident that happens, they're documenting all these incidences, and then we can also gather the metadata or that technical information from the device that they're recording it on, as well as the geolocation date and timestamp. So we can verify the timelines and they are where they say they are.
[:[00:15:05] Sheri Kurdakul: images. Okay. What we see from usage type that comes in, we don't know who our users are. You could be a user on my tool and I would have no idea. Sure. And I'm the CEO of the company. But we do see that entries are being made, what state the entries are coming from, and we see whether or not images are uploaded.
We don't see what those images are because those images are encrypted. But we see, the type of files going in. Was it a PDF? Was it a document? Was it an image file? And I can tell you that there are huge amounts of images being uploaded. That's most of the bulk of our server space is images.
[:[00:15:52] Sheri Kurdakul: Yeah.
[:[00:16:01] Sheri Kurdakul: That was the $20,000 question, right?
When we built this, we had to go through all of the state laws, all of the federal laws, all of the regulations, even for data storage, data compliance, privacy chain of custody laws. You name it, we went through it. And that's primarily what took me three years of building up until we actually launched the, even the first version of our app.
[:[00:16:37] Sheri Kurdakul: June of 2019.
[:[00:16:43] Sheri Kurdakul: We formed the company in 2018. So we celebrated our six year anniversary back in June and we're coming around on year seven, so yeah. Oh, wow.
[:What are the rules of evidence, as it applies and what it is admissible? We said images, notes, are people just keeping a journal? Does the app itself or the program. Feature, like a notebook where they can just type in different things?
[:Okay. So in the beginning, yes, they can journal because it's important to see their emotional state. It's important to get their side of the story, but then we walk them through. Things like what type of incident was this? Was it a sexual, physical emotional, was religion involved? Were there, multiple perpetrators, multiple victims, all kinds of questions.
And then for each question, then we give them the opportunity to explain in detail in their own words. So we're getting the. Quantitative and qualitative information.
[:[00:18:00] Sheri Kurdakul: It is stored in our own private servers that are isolated from anything else.
So the URL that the app resides on is not a bin nra, it's not Victim's Voice. It's something very nondescript. We partner with other organizations, but we do not partner from a technology perspective where anyone else's system plugs into ours because that creates a weak spot. So any kind of technology partnerships are referral based.
Okay. Because, we cannot have those connections. Sure. Then we can't control the security. All of the information is encrypted, as as this information comes in, it's encrypted and stored. It is not stored in one central location. Okay? And we even went as far as the the code that our systems are built in.
The code itself is encrypted. So even though we're in cloud servers. And everybody uses some type of server, whether it's AWS or Azure or whatever. There are instances where executives, top level people in those companies who have access to server space can be abusers. So we even thought from that perspective of what if.
The cloud service that we use, there's someone really high up that wants to gain access to our system and that's why we have everything decentralized. We have everything totally encrypted to ensure the safety and security and then monitoring all the time. Because we have to be able to certify and we do certify to the courts chain of custody of all that data.
We have to be able to back that up. From a technology perspective to say that we can show when this information, the device that it came in on, how it came through our servers, and it has not been tampered with at in any way, shape, or form at all through the duration of its lifecycle. That makes
[:Now, who is actually monitoring this? Who, where is this information going? To what type of people?
[:[00:20:21] Ali Kessler: so
[:[00:20:26] Ali Kessler: What are their backgrounds? Are they lawyers?
[:We have had former government officials that data analysis, data forensics, all of that, right? Go through the systems making sure that everything is tightened down. Our security advisor is also overseas. So even things like GDPR and ISO compliance, so all of that is covered.
Yes.
[:[00:21:06] Sheri Kurdakul: So we bec, first of all, we don't know who our users are, and we do that intentionally because what happens if we get subpoenaed? Then we're forced to relinquish information where it may not be safe for that survivor to put that information out there.
Also FIPs O rules are very clear if an organization receives VOCA funds, which we don't, but a lot of our partner members do, then the FIPs a rules state that any survivor information that's being released. Must be released to a specific person for a specific reason with the survivor's expressed consent for a reasonable amount of time.
So our system only allows a report and the files to be generated if the user themselves goes into the system and designates what we call a records recipient. So in essence, the survivor is going in, the user is going in and saying, I want these records to go to this individual. And then that individual would set up a light account, which is free on our system, Victim's Voice, and that light account gets linked to their account so that they can access the report and the files.
[:[00:22:28] Sheri Kurdakul: Yep. Got
[:[00:22:41] Sheri Kurdakul: So let's say they because we're not downloading anything, right? First of all, they would have to know the URL to even access the app.
So let's say that they do know the URL and let's say that they, it's not on a browser history. No, they can clear the browser history. So let's say that they do find the URL, and let's say that they do know what the username and password is. All of our information is a one-way door, meaning that once the information goes in, no one can access that information again.
No one can see it. If the abuser got in, the abuser would have to have a safe word in order to access the ability to generate a records recipient so they couldn't go in and assign themselves as a records recipient to get a copy of the report. Okay. We also built in safety. So what if the user needs to get in touch with us?
They're having a technical issue. They need a safe word to go into their InMail system. Their InMail system allows them to communicate with us. Without disclosing who they are, because we just see that a user has asked this question. Our customer support team then responds to that question and hits send, and it goes back into that user's InMail system.
At no time is their identity ever disclosed.
[:[00:24:09] Sheri Kurdakul: it. So it's, yeah. We also have unfortunately. It's all too common where victims don't make it out, and whether it's through death, medical, incapacitation, or oftentimes in the case of Native Americans missing and murder, missing, officially missing,
[:[00:24:33] Sheri Kurdakul: We wanted to make sure that the Victim's evidence could be heard even in those cases. So the user at any time can establish what we call a journal designee. Gotcha. And a journal designee is a trusted individual that in the event of one of those three cases, the journal designee can then request authority.
To assign a records recipient on behalf of the user. So the journal designee's light account is linked. They don't have access to the user's account, but their own account is linked to the user's account. And they would need to upload some official documentation for our company to review and authenticate, and then we turn on the ability for them to assign a records recipient.
So even in that, so that helps with
[:[00:25:30] Sheri Kurdakul: Yes. So if a victim is murdered then, and they've assigned a journal designee then, or even missing that journal designee can assign a records recipient and all of that Victim's evidence that's been documented can a report and all their files can be generated.
[:[00:25:58] Sheri Kurdakul: Yeah, if they're the journal designee. So let's say I'm the user of an account and you're my best friend, I would let you know that I'm gonna sign you. You would get an email from okay, our company saying you need to sign up your account or log in if you already have one.
You have a set timeframe and then you have to electronically sign a durable power of attorney. That authorizes you to request access should something happen to me. And if you're my trusted individual, you're gonna know if something's happened to me.
[:But if they're gonna get an email, then yeah, I guess they will. Yeah.
[:[00:26:40] Ali Kessler: So you were mentioning that people, victims could get this either by you can. Get an organization to become a partner and you can get it donated through the organization. I'm assuming like a nonprofit.
[:We have law enforcement. The latest law enforcement agency that just signed up was Kansas City, Missouri. Okay. We have, yes, you're right. Nonprofit. We have medical. Facilities. So nurses
[:[00:27:14] Sheri Kurdakul: have so someone from these
[:I'm a victim. And they'd say here's a license. You can get activation, you can log in and then start. Putting in all of your logs, your evidence from there.
[:And we give them all kinds of marketing collateral and and give them. Opportunities for nonprofits to even fundraise to get licenses themselves for free.
[:They're like, write it down, document everything, and try to get as much evidence as possible. But it's hard sometimes, especially, when time goes by and you forget details and the little things that, if you had that app that you can probably just fill in as you go and it's fresh and you have all that documented in real time.
Yes. So I think that's great. But can someone buy a, an a activation or a login on their own?
[:[00:28:42] Ali Kessler: right?
[:We see this often. We've had universities purchase licenses for us because a student is being stalked and they need to document. Stalking is one of the hardest cases for law enforcement to prove, and so it makes it much easier to gather all that evidence, especially because we're geolocating date and times stamping.
And so you can see, so this would've helped
[:[00:29:29] Sheri Kurdakul: Yeah.
[:[00:29:40] Sheri Kurdakul: So right on the website, anyone can apply. There's a link for partner programs and they can go in, they can request a demo first if they'd like. Okay.
It's really easy. There's a calendar and you can just pick your date and time. If you know you're ready, there's the application right on the website. Okay? You fill out the application, there is a minimum 10 license purchase to begin with. So there's a $300 investment in the front end, but after that there is, you only pay for what you need.
Okay. So there's no minimum after that.
[:[00:30:17] Sheri Kurdakul: Yep. Exactly. And so part of the application is filling out information about your organization. If you are a nonprofit, you upload your tax exempt certificate so we can make sure we don't charge you any sales tax.
Okay? And then we, once we receive your application, then we go through a pretty thorough vetting process to make sure that you're a legit organization. You're not some creep. Calling, for people to come into the basement, for a, for therapy sessions,
[:[00:30:49] Sheri Kurdakul: We have turned organizations away.
We have released organizations once they've been a partner member, if we see that they are not fulfilling their duties as. Their mission statement says okay. If we feel they are unethical in any way, shape or form, they're not representing themselves properly we have the authority to remove them from the partner program and we have.
[:[00:31:30] Sheri Kurdakul: So any kind of browser, but we highly recommend that they use DuckDuckGo. Okay. Especially if they're using a mobile device that they fear is being tracked.
They can download the DuckDuckGo app.
[:[00:31:44] Sheri Kurdakul: browser right on their phone. It's free. And then from there, duck dot go does not store any history in the phone. And with the, at the bottom of the button, there's a little flame and they can tap that and it wipes everything. So it's a That's great. Really?
Yeah, it's a really secure browser. We've turned a lot of District attorney's offices onto that. Yeah, and you can, if you're using a computer and you're using a crown, a Chrome browser, there is an extension, the DuckDuckGo extension that privatizes everything on there and make sure that everything is really secure.
So we are
[:[00:32:30] Sheri Kurdakul: Yep. Or download the extension or the app depending on the device that you're using.
[:[00:32:34] Sheri Kurdakul: Gotcha. And can you save it to your phone, as an app so they can just press. Oh yeah. Button. Okay.
DuckDuckGo is an app it's a browser app. Just like you have a Safari app or a Chrome app, you would've a DuckDuckGo app. And yeah, you just download it and then you search for everything in there and it will show you how secure sites are and how many trackers there are on every website. All kinds of really interesting information.
So this
[:There's so many people that can benefit from this.
[:And when we find something that we really like, we're not afraid to go out there and say, Hey, use it. Absolutely.
[:I.
[:That they really felt like it saved their life, the life of their child. We have had a few attorneys call us and our response is always, the outcome of the case is not really it really doesn't matter to us the outcome of the case. What matters to us was you, was. Were you able to use it as evidence?
Was it helpful in you doing your job and the response has always been an overwhelming Yes.
[:[00:35:03] Sheri Kurdakul: Because we cannot determine the outcome of a case. There are so many variables.
You have, are the attorney's ethical? Is the judge ethical? There's just, is the case really what it presents itself to be. There's just so many different variables,
[:[00:35:22] Sheri Kurdakul: That is not what we can control. What we can control is, was it able to help collect all the evidence, right?
Compile it in one location and help them do their jobs better, and was it. Used as evidence. Was it accepted by the courts as evidence? Yes.
[:[00:35:46] Sheri Kurdakul: We have never had any complaints of that at all. Ever.
Okay, good.
[:[00:35:57] Sheri Kurdakul: Yeah, and there's an evidence standard called the Daubert Standard. Okay. There's the Daubert standard and the fry standard. So Daubert is D-A-U-B-E-R-T. Frye is FRYE, and Daubert is really the gold standard.
It's a five point test to whether or not expert testimony whether it's in person or technical. Evidence can be admitted. And so that was really the standard that we used. There were a lot of technologies out there. Blockchain was huge when we were first starting, that was the buzzword of tech, but we couldn't use it because it's not a time tested, peer reviewed technology.
It would be accepted as per the Daubert standard, right? So we had to use standards that both were secure enough, but also met that standard of evidence. So yeah, it was really, really tricky
[:[00:37:03] Sheri Kurdakul: Yeah,
[:Yep. So what is next?
[:Choose, they would make up, and then they would be able to give away license for free for 30 days. Thus. Pre-vetting the user, and then after 30 days, if the user still wants to continue to use the tool, then they can either purchase a license on their own or they can come back to the organization and say, I need an extension for a year.
In which case then the organization could give them a license that they've paid
[:[00:38:11] Sheri Kurdakul: It's good for a year.
[:[00:38:13] Sheri Kurdakul: So a user has a year once they've activated it, and we do not do automatic renewals. Okay.
We don't ask someone to put in a credit card and keep it on file. Okay. The partner members can with their, purchasing bulk licenses, but an individual, we do not do that. That financial trail may set off a alarm bill. Bill, what does it come
[:[00:38:45] Sheri Kurdakul: About Victim's Voice? Obviously it says, we've developed Victim's Voice and seek and speak and all kinds of tools. But the URL that's being used is not related to any of those.
[:[00:38:57] Sheri Kurdakul: Yep. And most people they hear Ra, my husband says, it sounds like a pharmaceutical drug.
Ask your attorney if ab RA
[:[00:39:06] Sheri Kurdakul: you.
[:[00:39:12] Sheri Kurdakul: Yep.
[:Yeah, and I can't wait for our listeners at Grey Mines to hear about this because I'm not sure I know anyone that has used it. And I think so many people that have reached out to me could really benefit from this because I, like I said, we all keep logs of evidence. That is the number one thing that lawyers suggest for victims of domestic violence, but specifically coercive control, which is a very insidious type of domestic violence and super hard to prove.
Yes. So this will help make it a little easier.
[:[00:40:02] Ali Kessler: Thank you so much. Is there anything else you wanna share or should we just wait?
[:[00:40:16] Ali Kessler: App. Okay.
[:Okay. That will benefit, our partner members and people who need access to the app.
[:[00:40:34] Sheri Kurdakul: Excellent. Thank you so much for having me. Thank
[:Thank you. All right, I'll talk to you soon. Bye.
Bye.
