Episode 30: Advocating Child Safety in Custody Cases: An Interview with Sandy Ross

Sandy Ross Podcast

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Ali Kessler: Hi everyone, and welcome to Grey Minds Think Alike. Today we are talking with Sandy Ross, the President of California Protective Parents and the Executive Director of Family Court Awareness Month. Sandy has worked collaboratively across the nation to illuminate and address the most pressing child safety issues in child custody cases with a master's degree in forensic psychology and a graduate certificate in child adolescent psychology.

ornia's Piqui’s law, and in: 2023

I spoke with Sandy numerous times about three [00:01:00] years ago when she got billboards made of various children across the United States who died at the hands of a parent in a family court tragedy. I remember driving on the Florida turnpike and seeing a giant picture of gigs with a powerful quote that said.

Is this enough evidence, judge? And I'll never forget seeing that. Hi Sandy. Thanks for coming on and speaking with all of us. It's so nice to see you again.

Sandy Ross: Hi, Ali. Thank you so much for the invitation to join you in this critically important work that you're doing. I just hold you up in the highest regards.

I don't know if I could even walk if my story was like yours and, let alone do the advocacy and the work that you're doing. I know that you were able to get Greyson's Law passed in Florida. You're doing this, so just wanted to tell you how much I admire you and what you're doing. It's incredible. Thank you.

at brought up the billboard. [: 00:02:00

These are lives and we all need to get it together because we need to stop this. Yes, it's excruciating. And I'm considering one of the one I thought the billboards

Ali Kessler: specifically were very impactful. Like I said, when I saw that driving, just even if, even though I knew it was there I can only imagine what, other people thought when they saw it.

Sandy Ross: Yeah, very similar. Very similar. To see the some people even grieve further because if for some reason it made it even all the more real, so For sure. Anyway, yeah. That was a, an effective project, but it was a painful one. Really painful one. I can only imagine. Painful reality.

Ali Kessler: I'd like [: 00:03:00

Sandy Ross: So I came in contact with the court system in 2005 many years ago. It was a personal experience and to try to, summarize, I met. Someone who seemed to have the same goals and vision that I did and the same outlook on life and was really funny and a, smart professional and we ended up in a relationship.

anna see when I look back in [: 00:04:00

And from we had my daughter, then I started having people reach out to me, giving me gentle warnings to be careful. Within nine months, we ended up in a family court case That was, it just rocked our world. It was. Something that I could never, never could have imagined what would happen. And then I saw truths in the family court.

Not saying that every professional in the family court system is bad. I think the way it's structured and set up, it's hard for really good professionals to get it right or make decisions that work. But I saw the flow and I will tell you that. Introduction to the family court system, thinking that if there was issues of safety involved, that it would be a no-brainer, that they would get it protect, and that became the most bewildering experience.

[: 00:05:00

I know of whose children were murdered. That is the worst possible outcome. That's what you're trying to prevent. I honestly, at my, when I think about it and apply it to my own world, it literally takes my breath away. So it's living, that's not the outcome I had. It was one that I was concerned with, obviously.

ic bias when someone alleges [: 00:06:00

So then what The second scenario that I see is that the children end up with the abusing parent. The protecting parent is treated like they're doing something wrong for something that we're naturally, our natural instincts is to protect our children, and it's used against you. The harder you push to protect, the worse it gets, the outcomes.

en or the parents that I've, [: 00:07:00

Sometimes they'll go with them to be safe. They figure it's safer. But most of the time, from my experience, they reject that parent. And then they're pushing back on those visits. And that child who's been abused can't even wrap their heads and their hearts around, why is this parent who's protecting me, who seems safe?

Why is she or he forcing me into relationship? And you can't get into the court stuff. All of that. So that's the third. Those three scenarios are top of, my mind and our types of cases that happen quite often. I'm sure there's other, yeah, it's a

Ali Kessler: conundrum,

% foolproof answer to what [: 00:08:00

Because every case is different. Every case. It could have the same exact variables, the same background, the same situations. There's, there could be, maybe there's domestic violence and it's a middle class family. It's this, that there's one little, child the same dynamics, the same situation.

Who you end up with in the court system, who knows what they'll come out with 10 different outcomes. So there's no reliability in the psychology with testing and evaluations. It's knowing that no two people

Ali Kessler: are alike, so you'll never have the same outcome because you don't know what that each person is gonna do.

h, no worries. There's none. [: 00:09:00

Protective parent from the past. It's like you have to take care of yourself first. I think the first thing you need to do is gain an understanding of what the system is. It's what I see is that there's this expectation that many experience that the system is going to help. It's so complex that's not usually the case when there's abuse in a custody case because of the bias is monumental as we know.

strong voice that. Who have [: 00:10:00

That seems to be a common experience is that you need to, at least in, in the way that I've approached things. Is to just stay calm, stay quiet. I was very lucky to have an attorney who was a real protector and a standup guy, so he was able to help with making sure that I was in line. But these are what, what I say to parents is staying quiet

Ali Kessler: the best thing, because I feel like for me, staying quiet would've been detrimental.

engage the anger and, it's, [: 00:11:00

To be able to tone it down. You need to be taking care of yourself or at least know what's going on. Here's a situation where I was told to stay quiet and where I caution other parents, if your child is disclosing abuse and the system isn't getting it, and they're starting to look at you like you're coaching the child, or you're an alienator, that's the worst label you can get is being an alienator, right?

er and over, especially with [: 00:12:00

Ali Kessler: How do you get them to believe if it's happening?

Sandy Ross: Even, empirical data shows that most of the time of child sexual abuse comes up. The child ends up with the perpetrator of abuse. If alienation is used as a counter allegation, it depends. It's how do you protect them when they're being abused?

t person who abuses sexually.[: 00:13:00

They're not going to do things to leave, evidence behind. Sure. So what happens, what I, what I hear about are parents who take their child children in for examinations, forensic examinations even, and that's used against them, or doesn't make it in reports. I don't know, Ali, if I knew the answer.

I think if anybody knew the actual answer, we'd change the system. How they handle these cases tomorrow. I'm of the belief that, and this is not giving legal advice, but I'm of the belief that parents who are suspecting their children are being abused, that they should be video recording. They don't ha without the child seeing that they don't have to use those video recordings, but maybe it at least helps them with their own attorney if they're represented.

n a child will disclose that [: 00:14:00

The system, even if you do catch good, and this is why some, some attorneys and advocates will say, never record, right? Because even if you do catch sound evidence, it still ends up being used against the protecting parent. Crazy. I don't know what we're supposed to do. My opinion, we need to start over, right?

any things that can go wrong [: 00:15:00

There's not, from what I could see, there's no numbers when things do go wrong, there are no numbers when things do go wrong of, outcomes. So how could you fix something that you can't measure? There are predatory service providers that their business model is completely based on the courts, the family court system.

That's their target audience, their target marketing. In a business they market. Family courts with programs, some of them are quite frankly, frightening of what, what goes on, and there's no accountability or no oversight. Whatever sounds good seems to be implemented. I think we need to start over or have a new path to handle these complex cases.

And honestly, [: 00:16:00

So she had, and she took a lot of continuing education, but still she was uneasy about as they should, making the right decision because total respect to attorneys, I wish I had my law degree, but what Me too. Their educational background and experience doesn't line up with these

Ali Kessler: complicated issues.

ly court issues or a lawyer, [: 00:17:00

Yet a lot of these judges get thrown in last minute. Or like in my case, I had multiple judges in one weekend. I'm sure some of them weren't even in family court. They were just, back from happy hour. They need to literally put these judges. With some accountability to actually learn about what's going on because if otherwise, they can't make the right decisions.

Sandy Ross: I wholeheartedly agree with that. They have to have, because these cases are in front of them, they're literally, they have these people's hands or their lives, right? They have these in their hands, lives in their hands, and whenever I've had a job, I've done everything I could to be quite competent. Of that job.

That's what you should

Ali Kessler: do. You get [: 00:18:00

Sandy Ross: Yep. Yep. I You wouldn't have a doctor operate

Ali Kessler: on a patient that, never did that surgery before or didn't know about that disease, or No, you did. You go through training, you go through school, you go through rounds, you go through years.

That's just not the case in family court.

Sandy Ross: It's like having a general practitioner do heart surgery. Yeah, I totally yeah, agree. So that's why I think that there should be a path to a court or a program that specifically is centered upon these types of cases. And in the meantime, I think there needs to be.

other issue, oh my goodness, [: 00:19:00

That's an, that's a nightmare because. It seems like things layer of bad, one bad decision, or a lack of understanding of what happens in one system affects the other system, and it's not. You're dealing with family court and our type cases often roll between these systems. And that in itself is a problem. I go back to there needs to be a separate track. Parents who are committing crimes, because that's what it is, use of a crime should be held accountable at the, at a higher level. But the system needs to figure out how to get to the truth of what's happening. That's another problem. I watch, I watched a documentary where a therapist quote unquote.

weekend intensive [: 00:20:00

I think she said none. That happens in court. No, nobody's screening for that. Nobody's doing lethality assessments or maybe, definitely the majority of cases, I haven't seen a case yet. Maybe one where a lethality assessment was done. But anyway, I can sit here and complain all day and that's not gonna fix it today.

But for the survivors in this is to understand, so length the gauntlet of what you go through trying to protect a child in cases with abuse. And I hear, I think that. The parents think that if social services gets involved, that's gonna fix it. And unfortunately, most of the time it doesn't.

re in a custody case, you've [: 00:21:00

And really learning and getting educated more.

Ali Kessler: Right?

Sandy Ross: But so what I've experienced and seen in a dependency or in a social services case, the caseworker in my own personal case said to me that if another call comes in, she was in person, that she would put my daughter in foster care. Keep in mind, my daughter is telling me things.

e was nothing that I can do, [: 00:22:00

Okay. She was young and she was disclosing a lot of things that were alarming. And a false report was filed against me. The social worker came out and saw that nothing was going on, but her words were I said, do you believe, do you think that one parent could be driving all of this? Because all it really takes is one person with a high conflict or a vendetta to get you in the court system to drive insane amount of litigation issues.

said, you are like two kids [: 00:23:00

And I was like, wow. So that's when, that's when she said that another call comes in, that she will personally see to it that our child is removed and accused. My reaction of being emotionally abusive.

Ali Kessler: I, but let me just stop right there and interject. 'cause for me, I did just the opposite and I still had the outcome.

Anytime I was pushed and pushed and I let it for Greyson's sake roll off my shoulder, and Greyson never saw me exhibit because I ignored it, even though I dealt with it on my own. I ignored as much as possible. I never wrote back. I never responded. And I literally did my best to just ignore it.

And it's still. Didn't work out in our favor.

ow what it's, I didn't react [: 00:24:00

This to calm it down, to not react, even when it's justifiable if you're human, right? Yeah. It's justifiable. But yeah. So she had no idea what I had invested in trying to calm things down. I'm not a con conflictual person at all. I'm like, I would go around hugging trees and loving people all day if I could.

Yeah, I hear you. Nobody likes

Ali Kessler: conflict.

ould recommend highly to get [: 00:25:00

One moms battle, for example, that. It's such a lifeline and it's connecting with people who've been there and who understand it. And so I often refer people into that to give peer support.

Ali Kessler: We actually just had Tina on about three weeks ago, so yeah we introduced her and the world of one mom's

Sandy Ross: battle.

und when I. Made the scene in: 2005

And I told her what my experience was and I still remember where I was standing in my front yard. When [00:26:00] she broke the news to me of what this is and what's ironic about it is all these years later I end up on the board and heavily involved in that organization. Yeah.

That's as it should. Yeah. Yeah. So I get to give back and that's one of another thing I would like to, to go down to, how to help survivors cope and give them tools and ideas. To go back to that list is, understand the system, take care of yourself, meaning eat healthy. I did not.

And forgive yourself if you're not graceful, because I definitely was not graceful at times with this, but eat, try to get exercise, keep you know that. Happy. Yeah. You gotta take care of your

Ali Kessler: health because that affects your mental health.

ated type. Definitely use of [: 00:27:00

Ali Kessler: Which is what happened with me.

Greyson's father, his hate was greater than his love for Grey.

Sandy Ross: I don't even know if some of these guys could love, and I'll put women for the bad ones, I never wanna, I know it's a gender issue with abuse and it affects, yes. Women disproportionate a lot more than men, but there are men that I don't wanna exclude.

Ali Kessler: Absolutely. I've heard from fathers saying that Greyson's law saved their child's life. So it definitely goes both ways and I will always say that. Yeah. Now I'm am just curious, I would like to know how you got involved with Piqui's Law and what it is and how it's helps California.

was, is definitely one of my [: 00:28:00

I'm friends with Anna Estevez. Who is from the Los Angeles area, and she's also on the board of California Protective Parents Association. So we have a pretty close friendship and a few years back, Piqui's resolution was introduced into the legislature by assembly member Blanca Rubio, and it successfully went through, which was great.

So it laid the framework. I was involved in that, doing call outs, trying to get people to, trying to, educate on the issue to, to ensure that we start to get some groundwork done in California. Then Senator Susan Rubio introduced Piqui's Law and so I personally, that was my personal mission to really engage in that, to help coordinate to help with the language.

[: 00:29:00

So what the law, this was the second legislative session that. It was introduced the first time we didn't make it

Ali Kessler: right. Same with Greysons.

Sandy Ross: Yeah. What advocates seem to lose sight of that? Every state is different and states are gonna battle over certain issues. So the intent was to have the components of Kayden's law.

certain areas and there was [: 00:30:00

There were calls coming in from international on Piqui's Law and Team Piqui. That was, can you tell us a little bit about

Ali Kessler: that story just for briefly for our listeners, so we know how Piqui's Law came about?

Sandy Ross: Anna Estevez is Piqui's mom. She was in a divorce case with a really abusive personality that had a hidden life.

All of the above who's now in prison. It was heartbreaking. I'll never forget the first time seeing her on the steps at City Hall in downtown Los Angeles in a press conference begging for people, to come forward basically with information to say what was happening. So her child picky went missing.

t was a few months. And the. [: 00:31:00

The police had found him by his car. Piqui was nowhere to be found. And long story short, after a few months, Anna got the most dreadful call as you know what that call was about, that they found his body and he was propped up against a tree in the woods and just left there. This was

Ali Kessler: a few months you said after.

Sandy Ross: Yeah. Yeah. So all that time she had, so what was

Ali Kessler: going on? Yeah. What was going on in between that time of Disney World or Disneyland till that day?

er that period of time and I [: 00:32:00

Looking starts just freaking out. Anna's Anna, just ma remained steadfast and keeping in front of the media. Keep the message out. Did she think he was just kidnapped? She I, you should prob it probably would be better to talk to her for the detail level, because I don't want to get any of the facts wrong, but she always held hope that he was still alive and was engaged with so many people trying to, they did massive search parties, so they were looking.

She was hugely engaged. She called, okay. She called. I know she called the City of Los Angeles or emailed and made certain I don't know if demands is the right word, but expectations on help. She called the worldwide to get support to find him. And still remained having hope until that day when her hope was no longer, and it's heartbreaking.

Her story really [: 00:33:00

That's what we were able to at least get the topics where a training program has to be developed and also reporting on the judge's participation. So the number of judges that went through the training, which is good information we'd like, I'd like to see a more detailed, but it's a start. And then the third component of the law.

have certain components. No [: 00:34:00

We took the different tenants within reunification, treatments, programs, or services to at least broaden the scope a little bit. And I what is amazing to me is Maya and Sebastian, those children, it's the whole world saw that, what they went through, how some of these professionals that offer these programs after seeing that, could think that the treatment was valid. It just, it, Maya reported that they were called psychopaths or sociopaths. I've heard from other child survivors that they were told the abuse didn't happen. Yeah. I was, I

Ali Kessler: mean, I did just hear that reunification was banned in about five states. Yes. Yep.

So that's, a [: 00:35:00

Sandy Ross: It's a start. It's a start and that, and it's just having advocates in states go after it and that, and tying this back to the survivor is advocacy it. I started probably maybe 2000 seven-ish early on in my case, I started and I started small. In ways that were behind the scenes because that survivors have to be really careful in coming out.

things is watching survivors [: 00:36:00

They hear me. Exactly. They see me because you get, when you know, when you get a proclamation, it just feels so good. I had my city council member literally hand deliver it to me during COVID and say, this is one of the most important ones that we've done. I've had, I had another mayor after she gave it to me, hug me and say, this is so important.

I'm a survivor too. I've had cities reach out and call me after I was presented to tell me, oh my gosh, here's what I'm going through. Then I get to, I'd have the same,

victim of domestic violence [: 00:37:00

Yeah. So that, so you never know how many people you're gonna

Sandy Ross: touch. And if you can't be at the microphone and you can't have your face out there publicly because of the retaliation behind the scenes is just as rewarding. Sure. Early on, I talked to survivors who were. Going through cases with individuals that had psychopathic personalities.

That's where I started. Because who does that? That's my, who does that kind of behavior? There's something going on. But I started there and there was no, I wasn't open publicly, but yet I had that feeling in connection and identification with another human being to let them know they're loved and I get it.

eness Month campaign and the [: 00:38:00

Ali Kessler: parents reach out to me this within the last week because they saw pictures I posted of the billboards that we were talking about earlier.

Asking if they're still up, if they can go drive by for something they're working on and how they can get involved in that and get one for their child. So I was, I had to tell them this was already two or three years ago, but it was very impactful.

Sandy Ross: Yeah, it's incredible. But the feeling is good.

You, you have to, when you're going through this, you just have to find ways to get experiences of joy somehow in between. The trauma,

Ali Kessler: They say the sixth or whatever phase of grief is called. Making meaning, right? Doing meaningful things that will drive you to want to see another day.

I even get outta bed in the [: 00:39:00

Sandy Ross: You're such a beacon. For other parents is, all of those parents who haven't had to survive what you've survived, what. Anna Estevez survived. What? Kathy Sherlock survived. And which Lee survived. It's awful. I can ca I could go through a whole list. Yeah. Ought to do a better job.

ck of the numbers of stories [: 00:40:00

Ali Kessler: Yeah. Yep.

Sandy Ross: It's heartbreaking. It is alarming.

I know. I

Ali Kessler: went with CJE to to DC last year to just try to get some people to meet with us, to talk about child safety laws federally, because even though, even like Caden's law is federal, getting them passed into each state is not easy, which makes no sense.

Sandy Ross: It, it does to me when you, it does after going through the process end to end, it makes total sense to me now.

fear and parents' rights and [: 00:41:00

I can see now, I can see it's not an easy process. It's one that you need to have thick skin to, to get through and be effective at it. But it's worth it, right? I will tell you the most rewarding moment of all of my abbots, and one of the most, there's so many, one of the most rewarding moments was that I was on, I had a Zoom call set up for the parents that were in that focus group, like trying to get information from them, their stories, and I got them on the Zoom, and the most amazing thing was to tell them that I just heard.

The governor signed the law and they just, yeah. They were sobbing and I was so I could sob right now.

Ali Kessler: Yeah. I was worried that the governor, my governor was gonna veto Greyson Law because

Sandy Ross: gosh,

Ali Kessler: we were just worried that, it wouldn't pass, but he signed it.

you from across the country.[: 00:42:00

Ali Kessler: Yeah. So I guess what's what's next on the horizon for California protective parents?

Sandy Ross: Right now we're working on several projects. We have a research survey. On our website, it's at ca protective parents.org. It's right at the top. If you click on that, I encourage people, okay, to participate in all of the credible efforts to gather information about survivors experiences in the family court system or in the other systems, or on any particular category of abuse.

The more information that we could present, the better. So that's one we're, day to day just supporting survivors educational programs. We're right now planning a celebration of advocates and the hard work that they've done. That's, we're always, we're always looking at ways to advance child safety and education through advocacy and, research.

And I quote [: 00:43:00

Ali Kessler: That more, that sounds, hopefully we'll do similar things here in Florida. I love always talking to people that represent other states to see what they're doing. We can try to align our initiatives, especially here in Florida.

But yeah, I thank you so much for sharing all that with our listeners. It's been great to, to work with you and Tina and I hope that I can do more continuing continuously through my advocacy journey.

Sandy Ross: I'm sure that you will, Ali you're just amazing. I thank you again for inviting me.

I hope I made sense.

Ali Kessler: Absolutely. I appreciate it. And maybe I'll have you back on and we'll talk about some more things because as you, we both know that it's a never ending topic.

Sandy Ross: It is indeed.

n't wait to talk further and [: 00:44:00

Sandy Ross: Thank you. All right.

Ali Kessler: Talk to you soon.