Episode 8: Salt Water is the Cure For Everything: A Conversation with Margo Fowkes on Grief & Loss

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This podcast is for anyone who has lost someone they can't live without a child, a sibling, a spouse, a parent, a friend, and it's for the people who love them. Hi, Margo. Thanks so much for talking with us today. I just happy to discuss something, especially during the holidays or milestones and I'll just get some input.

I think I found you originally. From just Googling some articles regarding my own grief and loss. And then I came in contact with Salt Water and I wanted to reach out. So thanks so much for joining us.

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[00:01:15] Ali Kessler: Thank you. You know, I do it because I want to be able to provide resources for people that contact me needing help. So, because I'm not. Everyone's doctor, lawyer, friend, everything, at least I can interview people that can. So that's, that's the goal here with the podcast. If you just want to start telling our listeners a little bit about yourself and how you became, I guess involved in this whole realm of grief and about your consulting agency and how they work together.

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or what the likelihood was of that child not surviving it. It really was that moment of Like who knew that there was this happening in the world and part of me felt sort of badly about that and another part of made me realize that, you know, on the one hand, if you haven't experienced it, then it's not something you could know about.

ht. So Jimmy was diagnosed in: 2006

very much.

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[00:03:11] Margo Fowkes: Thank you.

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[00:03:12] Margo Fowkes: And I was, I found myself on the other end of that, once he died, almost feeling like I did when he was first diagnosed. Right? I had some connections with parents who'd lost children. But I felt like I was this incredible failure. Because my childhood died and as a parent, as you know, Ali, we feel like our number one job is to keep our kids safe and nobody tells us that there are these things that are going to happen to either of us as they have where that won't be possible.

And so I was casting about looking for websites and groups to connect with and I couldn't really find what I was looking for. And so I wound up creating it myself. And Salt Water is cast the way it is because the year after Jimmy died, my mother died. And so I had these two very different, but very painful griefs that I was carrying.

So with Jimmy, of course, no one questions the magnitude of the grief and the pain, right? It's my child, you know, just as when you lost Greyson, right? When my mother died, I got a lot of platitudes, and they were well meaning platitudes about the long, full life and all of those kinds of things, but they were without important context, which was that I had lost my child, and I was in no way prepared to lose my mom.

And so instead of creating a website and a community for parents who had lost children, Salt Water from the get go was broader. And like you, I'm all about involving other people in the conversation who've had different experiences. Because again, with losing Jimmy to brain cancer, I knew one kind of child loss.

I didn't understand all the other ways that we can lose kids or anyone in our lives. And so I began with that. And when I launched Salt Water, I also went back to work. And at the time they felt completely separate to me. There was my work, which I did. And then there was my grief and loss work that was separate from that.

But the bridge between them turned out to be the way that we go back to work carrying our grief. And so people connected to Salt Water and my clients both separately started talking to me about what it was like to go back to work when you were grieving, and particularly when you were grieving a loss that didn't get full acknowledgement or didn't get the same level of understanding that some of them do.

And that is, those conversations are what led to more formal interviews and eventually led to the writing of the book that I wrote called Leading Through Loss, How to Navigate Grief at Work. I should know the title of my own book.

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I find myself right now I'm consulting and I freelance, but I find myself, one, I get overwhelmed quickly when I feel like I have to do something because I might not be in the mood, so to speak, or I may just feel like crying at that moment. So that's why I really appreciate the fact that I can freelance and work for myself right now so I can allow myself that time to sort of have the moments that I need but also have some work to focus on because it is actually a big help to know that, if I have projects to do, things to do, it gets me out of bed. So, I know going back to work like in an office setting, It's very jarring to me and I don't know if and when that I will ever be able to, to be honest, I'm not sure.

I can't even picture myself at like the water cooler talking about, Oh, how's your weekend? Well, it was shitty. I cried. So I just. I just, yeah, I don't, I don't know how I'd ever do that again.

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Where I can't take a break or it's hard to take a break. Right. Having that freedom does help makes a big difference. And then, as you know, landmines are everywhere, right? You never know when someone's going to say something to you, even just completely unintentionally that can have you very upset in a moment.

Yeah. And if you're in that office, like it's really hard. Excuse me.

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[00:08:12] Margo Fowkes: Yes, it does. And it, and it takes a particular approach to it, which is really, I think of it as a guidebook or a handbook, both for the leader who is trying to support a grieving colleague or employee or the leader themselves, if they're grieving. So it's very much a step by step approach to this.

Because there's a lot of language around, we need to be more supportive in the work environment of people who are grieving, which agreed, of course we do. But the problem for someone who's not experienced a profound loss is they don't know what that looks like, right? They don't know how to be supportive.

Other than to say kind things, but they don't know that they need to check in pretty regularly. They don't know that Ali or Margo might very well need the day off. That's the anniversary of the day their child died because they haven't been through what we've been through, right? So it really gets down to those very nuts and bolts kinds of things.

The questions to ask. The ways to check in, how to involve other people in supporting your grieving employee, so that people actually know what to do. In those situations,

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Like you said, it could be a parent. It could be a child, but it'll also be, you know, I deal with a lot of parents that haven't seen their children in years who they're alive, but they still grieve in a way where they can't be with their child or a loved one. So I do know that loss is, a broad term, so to speak.

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[00:10:03] Ali Kessler: Yeah, no, absolutely. I'm going to have to read it because eventually I may actually end up back at an office.

Who knows, but for now I'll keep doing what I'm doing now. I want to discuss a little bit about the Salt Water aspect. So it's an online community where people can actually read articles and connect with. others that are going through something similar. Where do you get the contributors from?

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Attributions and links and things like that. It really comes from, the pieces come from all over. And I love the variety of it, because I've learned over and over again how complicated and complex loss is. And that we can only really be the expert on our own experience. And so what I write might not be that helpful for someone else.

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[00:11:11] Margo Fowkes: And so they need a different voice and a different perspective than mine. So I, I love the breadth and variety of pieces that are on Salt Water. And I try with the resources to, again, to offer a really wide range because people are in different stages of grief and they have different experiences and sources of their grief.

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And I'll be like, well, my child was just murdered by his father. And then I would get angry because. I just felt like it wasn't comparable. And then I lost my dog and my cat who, I had before I had Greyson. And I always thought, how am I ever going to live without my pets? You know? And then when they died, it was literally the same year Greyson died.

And I haven't even given them another thought. Like, it's just crazy how we sort of put a perspective on death and loss. And, now having spoken to so many people that have lost someone, I'm able to compartmentalize loss is loss. And like I said, you can't diminish someone's pain because that's their pain, right?

We each have our own pain that we live with. So it was hard for me, but I, I felt like I couldn't even talk to some of the other parents because, or people that lost because I just felt so angry, but I'm sure every one of those same people had the same experience.

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[00:13:09] Ali Kessler: Well, I'm dealing with all of that now.

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Why didn't you do more to save your child from dying of brain cancer, right? It's just not something we would say. I'm not a doctor. I did we did the best we could to try to get the right doctors. But again, it was in the medical professions hand. What I didn't understand until I started meeting people who'd lost loved ones to suicide or addiction, for example, was the way in which people will go straight to the way that the person died.

Okay. Instead of the fact that this person is gone and it becomes a, why didn't you do more or different kinds of judgments around that. And it really struck me too, when you were talking about losing your dog and cat and feeling like because of all this grief, you're caring that it was, in way it had less of an impact than it might have because of the way that Greyson is so, fills you with this sense of sadness.

I've also heard the flip side of that, which is I struggled to grieve my person. And then my dog died and I fell apart. And it isn't really the dog. It's the, that. This is like everything, right? And it's the loss of the dog that was connected to the person. And that's what broke it open. And again, people will be so quick to say, you're grieving your dog.

Well, yeah, because it isn't just a dog. You're entitled to grieve it, even if, if it is just a dog, but they often, they encapsulate so much else when they die.

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And I just felt like it was just the end of everything I ever loved and knew all at once. Yeah. Yeah. So it was, it was a lot. And I still think about all of them, but and then what you were saying with about people on milestones, I just had Greyson's eighth birthday was on Friday.

Yeah. On December 6th, and he would have turned 8, and I haven't seen him since he was 4 and a half, so it's like he doubled his age since the last I saw him, and it was hard to rationalize that, and then every year I've been doing a balloon release at a park that has a tree in his name.

And I invite everyone to come and every year there's less and less people that show. Until we're just left with just, my immediate family. I get that everyone has their life and I can't expect everyone to drop what they're doing at all times, but it always amazes me how there's always like a few strangers that show up or reach out to me or contact me.

And then there's people who I've known for years that don't, so it's always hard because I, I sort of, deal with the back and forth of people being a little wishy washy. Yeah,

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Thank God, thank goodness for that. Right? Right. Yeah. But yeah, it is those special few who keep showing up. . Yeah. and the ones that really strike me are when, my husband or daughter and I will get a text or a note from someone who says, I was just thinking of Jimmy because of this, right?

There was something that brought him into mind and it's a random day. And I think, my gosh, he's still on their mind. I love that so much, right? That they, that he continues to be present for them. And again, I think, I imagine, it's not my experience, but I imagine that's harder when the child dies at a very young age, because Jimmy was out in the world, so he had these relationships that were his alone as a young adult.

That, Greyson couldn't have. He was four, right? He wasn't out in the world in that same way, which, which makes it harder to for you because you have this sort of set of memories and connections. And I don't know, I'm not saying it very well, but it's another layer of his

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Absolutely. I don't get those milestones. I don't get those memories. I don't get to see him grow and grow up and to see what he would even look like as a teen or an adult. So, yeah, it's so okay. So salt water. I was reading a little bit about the meaning of it and I was reading how it said the sweat, the tears, the sea.

Can you just go into a little bit behind that meaning about the healing and what it means? Yeah.

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And I had put the term Salt Water on the list. And my friend Andy said, why is Salt Water on this list? And I said, it's after the Isaac Dennison quote, the cure for anything is Salt Water, sweat, tears, or the sea. And she said, that's it. That's what you call it. And she said you should organize the blog posts in those categories because there's the physical recovery, the sweat involved with grief.

There's the tears and the sadness of grief and all the emotions of it. And then the C is sort of the imagery for the navigating in the aftermath, right? It's not the recovery. It's not the, it's healing. It's not healed. But it's how we go on. In the face of that loss. And so that's how the website is organized.

And I also like it because I think even within that division, there are people who are really looking for those different categories and they don't find everything kind of lumped in together. It's separated based on in that way too.

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I know I've been traveling a lot more than I ever have. Since Greyson's death and I just know that when you're one with nature, it's sort of lets you have that moment to either think or meditate or just, I always just envision Greyson with me when I'm on vacation. And enjoying the outdoors. And I do things for him when I'm on vacation, things that I wouldn't have done, like go down a slide or just random things that I wouldn't have done on my own, but I do it now for him though, whether it's the mountains, the sea, I do go to the beach a lot, all of it.

So I love that. And I have been on the website and I do like that it's categorized because sometimes I want to read something from another mother that lost their child. And. Specifically their child or a young child so I can get more comparison rather than it be a different scenario. So I do love that and I'm going to continue to read it.

So we Talked a little bit about milestones and I know the holidays are coming and birthdays and death anniversaries are always really hard. how long now has it been since your son passed?

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[00:20:35] Ali Kessler: What do you do to honor

him?

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And so she went to see the Bob Marley documentary on Jimmy's birthday this year because Jimmy loved Bob Marley. So we try to do things that, it's like the example you gave about being out in nature and, getting on that slide, right? We try to do things that conjure him up for us, that make us feel more deeply connected.

But my husband has said that for him, the birthday is the easier day because when he thinks of Jimmy, it's with so much joy. Right. So there's some years, I think, where we skate through the anniversary a little bit more because it is so, so painful. And then I found this year really unexpectedly, honestly, although I, in some ways, I probably should have seen it coming.

Year 10 was brutal for me in a way that it hadn't been really since the first couple of years. And. I think what made it harder is I didn't expect it. I thought that the time around the anniversary would be bad and then I would come out of it as I normally did. And this time the kind of feeling of Grey small depression lasted for months.

And, and I've not had that happen before, so that was a new experience. I think the number

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So I do not look forward to that 10 year. And I was saying about doing things for them this past Friday was his birthday. And I said, well, every year, Greyson eats cake and has a pizza party and gets balloons. So every year we've been doing balloon releases and having pizza and eating cake.

And for his death anniversary, we've been releasing butterflies. So, and every one of his classmates, his teachers have been so instrumental and show up all the time for every event. They even show me that there'll be at their house at home and a butterfly is there and they'll take a picture and they're like, just thinking about Grey or little things like that, like you mentioned.

So it is special to see those little moments. It's actually crazy. I was just talking to someone about this, how since Grey passed, I see the word Grey everywhere. There's like a brand now at Ross called Happily Grey. I actually just bought a pair of pants cause it said it. There's a brand at Target called Grayson and Threads.

I see that just everywhere, whether it's on TV, someone's name, just I'm like, well, that could have been Mr. Black, but it was Mr. Grey. I mean, it's just crazy how his name just pops up everywhere for me now.

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[00:23:56] Ali Kessler: a little reminders that they were here.

So now what are some tips that you have? I guess for people that are grieving Especially now during the holidays or for an anniversary. Do you have any set tips that you would offer advice for?

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So, for example, when Jimmy died, we tried to stay home the one of the first Christmases because we always had. And. We discovered that we couldn't do it, and we found ourselves Googling hotels in San Francisco on either the 23rd or 24th and going down to San Francisco for two nights to get out of the house because it was just too depressing to be here.

And so I found over the years that. Each year is different. Some years I feel like being home. Some years I don't. Some years I do a little decorating. Some years I don't. And I've stopped judging myself for that. Cause I think there's too, there's a lot of pressure from other people thinking like, well, it will make you feel better if you come to the family gathering or the Christmas party or decorate or host or whatever it is.

And we have to allow ourselves to be where we are. And that also extends to showing up where we want to show up. Right. And

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[00:25:19] Margo Fowkes: it may not feel great to go to your friends or your family's big holiday gathering, or you may need to go for a short period of time and then leave. And I think it's about giving yourself permission to just be where you are and to take care of yourself.

And your own needs.

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It, it's sort of. Makes holidays very sad and depressing and it's almost like, well, why am I even doing this? Why am I even doing this? But even like every year we go to my best friend's house for Thanksgiving. Greyson came multiple times, four years, I guess, and we were just there again this year and it's like, you see all the other children and I'm just like, how is this my life?

How is this it? Of course I'm gonna show up because they're, you know, So close that they're my second family, but it does make, again, it makes you just very sad. Exactly. I just, I guess you have to find ways to turn that into joy. I'm not sure how.

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And I think for the people that are listening to the conversation who might be thinking about how to support somebody else. Right. Yeah. I think they're lovely ways to do that. Right. I've heard stories of people showing up for gatherings like the one you're describing and there might be a place that.

For the person who's missing right or a candle burning for the person. Sometimes what's a lovely thing to do too is to take a moment and share some stories about the person who's not there, whether it's a child or an older loved one it. brings them into the room in a way. And it, and particularly for for those of us who are grieving a child or a really important person we've loved, you feel like they're with you in a way, any way that nobody else is acknowledging it, you know?

And so that's, if you, the folks that are hosting are gathered together with you can find a way to bring that person into the room and say their name and. Like imagine saying, remember that Thanksgiving where Greyson had his first turkey or, knocked over Susie's wine or, whatever the story is, it all of a sudden he's there in the room, with

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Yeah, no, I do love that. And luckily that, specific this past Thanksgiving and the last couple without Grey, you know, that family has been able to, been so gracious and they show up to everything and they do remember all the funny times that Grey was over and probably did knock Aunt Susie's drink because there is an Aunt Susie.

Oh, is there really? Yeah, there is. But they're really good about that. But I do love that advice for others to sort of make a special , Point or reminder or incorporating them in some way, because a lot of times they're not. And then we shouldn't have to wear, t shirts that say their name on it or have a picture of them on the face to sort of include them into your plans.

So that is a good tip. Anything else?

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Yeah, exactly. But it's really, I personally, that's something I do. I just, I discovered it was way too hard to spend a lot of time on social media with that. And the other thing that really helps, I think too, is that, , families are going to do what families are going to do, right? And even though We feel like sometimes like the universe should be kinder to us, or we shouldn't be subjected to certain things because we've had this terrible loss.

It's not how the world works. And so I think it can be helpful to be in closer touch with your soulmates, essentially. And the people you can call and say I just went to Thanksgiving at my mom's house, and you're not going to believe what happened. And so that you're not calling out of the blue, they kind of know they need to stay in closer contact because the holidays are going to be hard and they check in a bit more and you can also feel free to pick up the phone and call and just say, Oh my gosh, this was so hard and I need to talk about it.

Right.

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[00:30:41] Margo Fowkes: That's really lovely. I love that Ellie. Yeah. And I, do you sometimes find that when they leave you a memory, that it's something, particularly early on that you might not have known. Sure. Yeah.

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And you know, I would read this and just like crack up and just all these little things that I didn't know, little, their memories when I wasn't with him. And yeah, no, I love it. And I, you know, I tried to keep the memory box set out at every event in case there's new people coming. But. I mean, there's tons of memories and if we don't write them down, just my biggest fear is forgetting them.

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We need those kind of tangible, physical things to look at and hold, I think.

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You mentioned social media and I'm on social media now mostly for Greyson's Choice, but I also still go on to post pictures of Greyson on, the day of back in, 2019, 2018. So I don't forget so other people don't forget and then that is all I do on Facebook That is really all or social media in general other than for the organization I don't peruse it like I used to I don't spend hours looking through people's stuff because one is it's not true You think it is and then it makes you upset and everyone posts their best right?

No one's gonna post Their worst pictures of what the food on their face and their hair all messed up But it's but that's real. That's the reality right is when you eat something you're gonna get food on your face So I just try not to look and I just go I post things about the organization I post clips and I post pictures of Greyson and that is it

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And I, I am very, I've gotten to be very much the same way, right? I'm mostly on for Salt Water or my consulting work because I do have social media for that too. Um, and I sometimes go on my Facebook page for different reasons. But yeah, I find that I can't spend a ton of time there for that reason.

And I don't think we're alone. I, you hear that other people express that even if they're just struggling in general, not even having a profound loss, it's a tough environment to spend a lot of time in.

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So for that, I do like social media because I know that I've even, I'm in a few Facebook groups for grieving parents for, I miss my son, I think is one just different ones like that, which are very helpful.

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And then the other times you've alluded to this too, right? You need to talk to someone who's had your type of loss, whether it's the same relative that's been lost, or the same way, lost the same way, or the same kind of thing, like other people who are divorced, other people who have a child with mental illness, or a loved one with mental illness.

Yeah, it really does help sometimes.

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And it still wasn't believed or nobody did anything about it. Or I know for me, I tried to get a restraining orders and I tried to get our time sharing changed and just nobody believes until something like this happens. And there's a lot of us. There's a lot.

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And that's such a consistent theme of you saying, this isn't right. This doesn't feel okay. This doesn't feel safe. Even the day of those calls to the policing, please go out to the house, please do a welfare check. And there's such resistance. It's like we, I can't imagine it as a law enforcement person.

And therefore. It can't be something that could happen. Right. And yet it does far too. And until

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Nobody takes the time to even get training on it or learn more on how to stop it from happening. But yeah, that day when I was asking for. Help. And I was literally told we can't send another police officer out there until tomorrow. And that it's a liability. We can't break down the door. I'm like, it's a liability.

Seriously. I mean, we had to hire a locksmith to break down the door ourselves. Yeah.

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It's in the wrong place on his head for one thing to be migraines. And he made some flippant comment about this is why we shouldn't let moms on the Internet. And of course, it turned out to be a brain tumor. And so, there's just this feeling of like, uncommon things are uncommon, therefore they can't happen.

And it's like, no, they're just less common. It doesn't mean they can't happen,

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different bills or laws or cases, case studies for court. And someone was like, well, I can't find anything to cite. There is nothing, nothing like this has happened. And I was like, well, it only takes the first time for it to now be something. And now forever forward, someone is going to look back on this specific case and cite it because it now exists.

It now exists. Exactly.

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[00:38:05] Ali Kessler: beauty

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[00:38:06] Ali Kessler: I was just going

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[00:38:24] Ali Kessler: Right. Do you find it helpful to be around people that have also lost a child? If you ever, like people have said, Hey, there's this like weekend trip or I don't even know, and or there was a cruise and it was all grieving parents, and I was like, I don't think I want to do that. Like I, it sounded horrible to me. It's so sad. That's so depressing. But I know a lot of people do find solace in that. So I'm just curious if you do

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And what was comforting and what wasn't and even with the people who try really hard, sometimes it just doesn't land the way that you need it to. And I do personally, I'm not really good at that. I don't put myself in situations that I can't get out of. So like you, when you said cruise, I'm thinking there's no way to get off that boat if it's not going well for me, right?

I'm kind of stuck. It's kind of like a weekend retreat too. I'm not sure I would do that unless I really knew a lot of the folks that were going to be there. But that's just me. I mean, everyone's different. I was invited

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And I was like, well, is there a bar? What are we going to be doing? Just like, yoga? Like, I just, I couldn't even, I couldn't even fathom it. Maybe I would now, maybe as time has passed, I would think about it differently, but

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Diaper, they won't sleep, whatever it is. Right. And looking around the room and thinking, Oh my gosh, all these other moms are, Parenting newborns to like, we're all going to be friends. And then you realize that's not how the world works. Just because you're all parents doesn't mean you're going to be friends with everybody.

Right. And I think that same thing is true with loss. Just because you've had a similar loss, it doesn't necessarily mean you're going to find the other person comforting or want to have a connection. And it's not about, it's not a right or wrong. It's just a difference. Kind of thing. I do find a little bit of that.

Sometimes it's almost like, you should meet my friend so and so, because she too has lost a child and it's like, okay, I don't mind meeting your friend, but just because we share this loss does not necessarily mean that she's going to find me comforting or I'm going to find her comforting.

We have to, we have to see whether or not that's true. It's not a given.

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And some of them did become my good friends and some of them I saw in passing. So, it's like anything else, but I agree. I have to sort of take it as it is. And if it works, it works. If it doesn't, it doesn't.

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And so I think we have to be kind to ourselves and be okay, being kind to ourselves.

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[00:42:29] Margo Fowkes: You can get it on Amazon, and that's probably the easiest place to find it. Okay, I'm going to post the link in the show notes.

Great. Yeah, great. Thank you.

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They don't feel alone and know that everyone is grieving something. Everyone has lost something. No big, no small. So I appreciate you coming on and hopefully we can connect again.

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[00:43:11] Ali Kessler: Yeah, absolutely. All right. Thank you so much. I will talk soon