Episode 12
Episode 12: Fake Love: The Illusion of Narcissistic Relationships with Nova Gibson
This is your go-to Podcast, where we help parents navigate the complexities of family life. Hosted by Ali Kessler of Greyson’s Choice, we’ll cover everything from understanding domestic violence to navigating the legal system, finding the right therapists, life hacks, family law, mental health, custody battles, and how to protect children in dangerous situations.
In this enlightening conversation, Nova Gibson, a therapist and expert on narcissistic abuse, shares her insights on the complexities of narcissistic relationships. She discusses the definition of narcissism, the dynamics of coercive control, and the manipulative tactics used by narcissists, such as love bombing and word salad. Nova emphasizes the importance of self-love and setting boundaries, especially when co-parenting with a narcissist. She also highlights the challenges faced in family court and offers practical advice for victims of narcissistic abuse. Her book, 'Fake Love,' serves as a guide for understanding and healing from these toxic relationships.
About Nova Gibson
Nova Gibson is the director, founder, and primary counselor of Brighter Outlook Narcissistic Abuse Counselling Service and the go-to expert on narcissistic abuse recovery in Australia. She is passionate about helping victims identify narcissistic abuse and coercive control and find a way to break the toxic cycle and heal. With more than ten years of experience, Nova has helped thousands of clients in Australia and around the world with one-on-one professional support and her popular Q&A and abuse recovery sessions on social media, providing regular information and support. Nova has also worked in the child safety sector and has supported individuals, couples, and families experiencing crisis and trauma. She lives in Brisbane, Australia.
Book: Fake Love:
Visit www.brighteroutlooknarcissisticabusecounselling.com.au
https://www.brighteroutlooknarcissisticabusecounselling.com.au/about/
About Ali Kessler: Ali Kessler is a writer, marketing professional, passionate parent advocate, and founder of Greyson’s Choice, a 501(c)(3) created to raise awareness about the risk of domestic abuse on children. Greyson’s Choice was founded by Ali Kessler in memory of her sweet, vibrant, and fearless 4.5-year-old son, Greyson, who was murdered by his biological father in a murder-suicide during an unsupervised, court-approved visit in Ft. Lauderdale, FL, in 2021. This came just hours after her petition for a domestic violence injunction was denied by a Broward County judge, citing that the “petitioner has failed to allege any overt acts by the respondent which would constitute domestic violence under Florida Statute.”
Ali’s advocacy efforts culminated in successfully passing Greyson’s Law during the 2023 legislative session. This bill now requires the court to consider threats against ex-partners or spouses when making child visitation and custody determinations in the court, expanding to include the following factors: evidence of domestic violence, whether a parent in the past or currently has reasonable cause to believe that they or a minor child is, or has been in imminent danger of becoming the victim of domestic/sexual violence by the other parent, even if no other legal action has been brought or is currently pending in court.
Contact Ali:
Transcript
As a therapist, podcaster, author, and expert, Nova knows all about fake love, which you can read about in her new book, where she helps identify, navigate, And survive toxic relationships just in time for Valentine's Day. So hi, Nova. Thank you so much for chatting with us today. I guess if you could just tell everyone a little bit about yourself and your background.
[:And I saw a lot of toxic relationships. But the most toxic relationship I saw was when I first opened my practice and I started doing Couples therapy and that's where I couldn't do the couples counseling anymore because you have to be there for both people, and I could see especially from my personal experience that I could see that there was a power imbalance in these relationships and that's when I chose to focus solely on the victims of narcissistic abuse.
[:[00:02:23] Nova Gibson: Sure. So, if you're going to go by the manual, the Bible, the DSM five, you're going to get probably a different version of Narcissistic personality disorder than, then I would give my version and the version I haven't got in front of me.
So you're not going to hear the exact version, but that I have in my book. But basically, I define narcissism or pathological narcissism as the abuse that's inflicted by a narcissist with the aim of dismantling your personality, destroying your self-worth and self-esteem making, making it so that, or conditioning you to not trust your instincts, eroding any boundaries that you have away.
And all the while this is happening, They're conditioning you to blame yourself for the abuse. They want to basically create a new personality, as you would see in one of those cult documentaries, or maybe your listeners have experienced that firsthand where they, yeah, they dismantle who you are to create someone who is easier to manipulate and abuse.
[:[00:03:51] Nova Gibson: It's definitely a disorder, but I think the word disorder is relative in terms of it's only a disorder in so much that it's these people who have no empathy, no compassion, massive sense of entitlement, et cetera, et cetera, are different from us, from the people we consider to be normal, I guess in society, people who have empathy, where you wouldn't intentionally hurt someone else. So, it's a disorder because they are different from us. And this is my opinion from what we consider to be a normal empathic human being. But it's probably the only disorder, in inverted commas, that the person who has the disorder is not negatively impacted by it. So they have no idea. Well, they, they know that there's something a bit different about them, I believe, but that's more in terms of I'm special. You just, you just can't see it. You can't see how, how, how grand I am. So it's the, it's a disorder in terms of the, Different, I believe from us, but they're the only I think it's the only disorder where the actual person with the disorder is not negatively impacted by it and everyone around the person with the disorder is in therapy.
[:Now, why do many narcissists believe that coercive control is the only way to go?
[:This is if the narcissist is a man or maybe it's a woman cause it's not gender specific, this type of abuse. But they want to go shopping with you for clothes all the time. Oh my goodness, they're interested in what I wear. This is amazing. Everyone thinks you've got, you know, the, Boyfriend or the girlfriend of your dreams because they're so into you and then it might kind of go to I want to pick you up every day for one because I care about you so much.
The victim is flattered by this, and it's, they seem so caring, they're so into them, but there's this gradual slippery slope into, that's not visible, it's not overt, into utter helplessness and, and complete control because the victim fears the punishment if they make a decision of their own and the punishments start off small.
Just a little sulk here and there. Just a little slamming of the fridge or not coming home on time when they used to. The victim grows to learn that it was because they didn't ask them about what they were going to wear that day or they came home with makeup on and They're pretty enough without it.
They get conditioned to be under the rule of the dominant narcissist through that punishment because, in the end, it's just easier to do what they want than to have to go through the punishments which they're not always, you know, hitting or, you know, really obvious screaming and yelling.
It's more the silent treatments. The yeah, not coming home, staying away, the stonewalling. They are traumatizing,, and that's the nature of coercive control. So, if they're out there, You're leaving bruises on your body everywhere, and all the neighbors could hear them screaming, yelling. I'm just not saying that doesn't go on.
It would be more overt, and if they like that all the time, it would be easier to leave. So, the victim becomes accustomed to living like this and they normalize it and they minimize it and they rationalize it away.
[:[00:08:37] Nova Gibson: Yes. Absolutely. The each individual narcissist is obviously going to have their own way of love bombing and and the degree of it but love bombing is about making you feel amazing and so desirable and coming on thick and fast like you're the only one so that it happens so fast and you you feel just so elated by basically the dopamine rush that you get that you become hooked on that feeling so that when they rip it away, which is inevitable. That's written in the stars the second you meet them. You crash and you don't know what you've done. So then the devaluing starts where you're forever chasing that initial high like the heroin addict is forever chasing that first euphoric hit which is never again attainable.
[:[00:09:58] Nova Gibson: Yeah, absolutely. That's, that's the epitome of word salad. Word salad is about deflection. It's about confusing you. It's about shifting the discussion away from what you were trying to make them accountable and shifting it on to another subject often where you end up being The, the, the one who's defending yourself for some perceived indiscretion that you did 20 years ago, they will make it so exhausting and frustrating for you, when to you, it is so black and white.
It's like, here you are, here's the evidence, this is what we need to discuss, one plus one equals two, and then you end up talking about some thing that you did wrong, and they do this to avoid accountability, and to drive you insane so that you don't try and approach them. Again, it's a it's another form of conditioning.
[:[00:11:09] Nova Gibson: Yeah Oh, they're skilled in doing this. They they're not dumb and they can't think like a chess player Which they they have to if they had a really low IQ most narcissists Have at least a very reasonable if not, very high IQ
[:And I always said that really intelligent people are the ones that you should be wary of.
[:When they ask me, do they know what they're doing? There's your answer. They know they just don't care because it's all about them and they justify their abuse. Even if it's just that you tried to approach them to make them accountable, well, if you're doing that, you're trying to make them accountable for something, then you're telling them there's something wrong with them.
Or you're, if you're questioning about something they said, then you're accusing them of lying. So, you deserve the punishment, so they will always justify it.
[:Maybe I shouldn't wear makeup, or maybe he should drive me to work, or all of these things. It just makes the control that much stronger, I imagine.
[:You're insecure. I'm just friends with that person. You know, sending them nudes. But you know, they're just friends with that person. So they make you feel insecure so they can use your insecurities as a weapon against you.
[:[00:14:39] Nova Gibson: Well, that's short and sharp answer to that Ali and Erin is you can't, you cannot co parent with a narcissist. And I go into a lot of detail around this in my book because obviously the next question I state this in my book is, well, "what the hell do I do then? You know, I've got a child with this person."
And that's where we talk about parallel parenting, which means, essentially putting rock solid boundaries in place and you doing what you do on your week with the children. The narcissist does what they do and you have those boundaries. Those boundaries most probably going to have to be reinforced with orders.
I always suggest getting orders where the I's are dotted and the T's are crossed. And you think of every contingency when you get those orders written, till from now. until when the children turn 18 because if you leave one little loophole, the narcissist will take that and they will run with it. Now, just a few things your orders are essential.
You can't negotiate with a narcissist. They will destroy your plans and they will use the chip, the children obviously to destroy all the happiness and peace in your home. So that's why you need those boundaries reinforced by a third party, the court. But, you know, just a few things I speak about in my book, and I've got some really good strategies in there is. Getting a parenting app where all, well they are in Australia, I'm not sure how they work out.
[:[00:16:28] Nova Gibson: Yeah. Yeah, it's in the book. I think it's our wizard or something like that, but yeah, all conversations recorded. So your abuser, and that's who they are. They're your abuser. They are less likely to abuse you because they know it's going to, the court is going to see it. And or if they do send you a tirade of abuse, well, that gives you some pretty good evidence to give to the court where you may have to get any orders if in place adjusted or simply.
You know, maybe have sole care of, but, you'll have the evidence there that that person is not co parenting.
[:[00:17:22] Nova Gibson: Yeah, I know. And, and that's where yours, and I've spoken to many people in the States who have had experiences in the family court system over there and you know what? I don't believe it's much better here. It's flawed. They don't get it. They don't get these personality disorders. And often the victim gets punished for the residual effects of the abuse and the abuser uses the system, the family court, as another platform to extend.
The control and the domestic violence through your litigation, abuse, post separation, abuse, financial abuse, all that sort of stuff. And the, the abuser will engage in, the narcissist will engage in what we call DARVO. Deny, Attack, Reverse, Victim, and Offender. They'll just flip the script and make the victim appear to be the abuser.
And yes, this is why we just need so much more research. We need more professionals that understand this type of abuse. And the fact that then they, they're going to get on the stand and also say, so they're going to appear nice. They're not going to have, you know, they're not going to come in there with a big machete and you know, and and a big fine on their forehead saying, hey, I'm I'm a narcissist.
They're going to appear nice. They're they're going to appear like they love their children. So, that's where you you've got to have tests done, look at history, and understand the disorder. But other than the orders and having the parenting app.
Things like cutting off their 24- hour a day access to you now people think and the condition to fear their abuser understandably they think they have to have their phone open 24 hours a day because it's Well, I share children with them, Nova. I can't just block them on my phone. Why not? Well, because they, what if there's an emergency?
Okay, so if there's an emergency, well, number one, you've got your, your parenting app that they can direct all communication through but if there's an emergency, that's a really valid point. So, give the narcissist your mom's number or your best friend's number and they can act as a go between. We're not talking about normal relationship breakups here where there's Expected transparency, where you can co parent.
That stuff's off the table. It's impossible, because they will use any opportunity to counter parent everything you do. And To keep control of you and your emotions. So, if you can get through the day, knowing that if your phone goes off, it is not going to be them. How much, how freeing is this? You can heal, you can be in an environment where you can heal.
So, the narcissist is of course is going to come back with, well, you're a bad parent. And You know, what, the same thing. What if there's an emergency? Well, if it's only about the kids, why would they care if they've got a point of contact? But they will because they're losing control. Now, when you put these boundaries in place, this is not the same as what they do.
The difference is in the intent and the motivation. So when they give you the silent treatment or if they block you or cut you off, that's about control. That's about punishment. When you do this, it's about self care. The difference is in the intent. So block them. If you've got court coming up, I always suggest talking, well, you talk to your lawyer no matter what, but you may want to leave that till after the court process is simply because the court, family court doesn't get it a lot of the time. So you want to, you've just got to jump through the hoops basically.
[:[00:22:31] Nova Gibson: bad parent, so, right. Yeah. So it's lose lose. So I don't understand how that can happen. And it happens here too. This is where you need a good lawyer. If you've got a parenting app to use, and they've just said, no, I'm not, I'm not using that.
Well, isn't that, you know, isn't, isn't that an indication? Of their lack of willingness to I guess things in place to make communication easier. And obviously if you're, it's like if one person wants a divorce. Okay. You want a divorce in a relationship and the other person goes, I don't want a divorce.
So you're, you're going to stay with me because I still, you know, want to be married to you. What's the point of that? Want to just give them the divorce because clearly this person doesn't want to be with you. It's going to work out better for both of you if you just You know, put things in place that, you know, if you share children, that you can move on and get on with your life because this person doesn't want to be with you.
So one person is saying, Hey, I don't want to speak to you. And the narcissist knows why they know why they just want to keep control of you. But if one person is saying, this is what's best for me, why would you? Why would you have a problem with that? They reveal themselves. So the court should look at that and take action and I guess breach them if they're if that's in the order and I'm not sure that you have the order but if it's in the order that they use the parenting app well, they're breaching it.
[:[00:24:19] Erin Cooper: Yeah, Ali, I think it would have been effective if you could have somehow blocked his phone number. And maybe given him your mom's number and said, call my mom if there's trouble with Greyson.
And I mean, just, I guess, I mean, I can only imagine
[:[00:24:37] Erin Cooper: Right. I guess, you know, you'd have to figure, or you could give him my number.
[:Biggest guy at work to be the mini fader and, and let your abuser , tell that person that you didn't pack a toothbrush. Yeah. I got messages like that all the time.
[:[00:25:54] Nova Gibson: Yeah, there's one. I mean, there's so many strategies in my book.
[:[00:26:02] Nova Gibson: Okay. So fake, can you see that? Yeah. Fake love. Understanding and Healing from Narcissistic Abuse published by Harper Collins is the best selling self help book in Australia in 2023 when it was released, which I'm very proud of. And it is a But as I say in the beginning, I did not write this book. So it would be a textbook. Something you'd see in you know universities. Nor did I want it to just be one of the many where you just go okay this is what narcissists do and this is what you should do. This is more a victim's handbook, a victim's Bible telling you you know, how this started and validating your trauma in all types of relationships whether that's a parent or an intimate partner and absolute concrete strategies to escape If you're still highly trauma bonded, addicted to the rollercoaster, how to escape and concrete strategies, not airy fairy ones, concrete strategies to escape and to heal.
And it's not a boring textbook. It's a very, very easy reading. I wanted it to be for the victim, not for a scholar.
[:[00:27:46] Nova Gibson: Well, no, and and that's because of how most of us as normal human beings where we have a normal range of emotions we have Empathy. Now, that's what sets us apart from robots. We have empathy. We have that agency and we have you know the ability the capacity to reflect on our behavior. The narcissist doesn't do that.
So, love is just a word, okay? So, it's just a word. Unless it is backed up by consistent patterns of behavior, not isolated incidents, not breadcrumbs, but consistent patterns of behavior that reflect what we as I define kind of what a normal human being is with empathy. What we believe love is. So that would be someone who cares about.
Someone who has compassion, genuineness. Someone who is loyal. Someone we trust. Someone that has our back when we're not there. Someone who has empathy and and that's you know reciprocated and you trust them you know those types of things that that's what defines love so if you believe that love is, and I don't mean to sound facetious here but if you believe that love is you know is telling you how amazing you are one day and or one minute And in the next minute doing something that completely negates those words.
Or they flip and they flop from the words I love you to making you feel like they despise you. Then, yes, they love you. That's not love. We think though when we're trauma bonded to them and we feel so, so lost without them and we miss them and we ruminate about them. We think that we love them because all we can, it's so painful and the thought of them being with someone else is excruciating.
And so we think we must love them. So, you know, better to be with them. than to be in this pain because you must love them. That's not love because I just defined what love is. That's addiction. It's not, it's not that it feels good to be with this person, it's that it feels so bad to be without them.
That's withdrawal. That's addiction. That's a trauma bond. Is there a rehab for this type of person? For this, for the abuser, for the victim. For the abuser. For the abuser. Well, they'd have to think there was something wrong with themselves if, for them to go into any kind of rehabilitation facility, wouldn't they?
They're not going to walk into a therapist's office and, you know, Say, hey, I'm here. Fix me. I'm a narcissist. This is never going to happen. They will go to therapy. Absolutely. To manipulate the counselor and to get attention and to re traumatize you as And this is why another reason I believe that the research is so flawed.
The statistics that we have are so flawed. And these are probably the statistics that the family court take into consideration in terms of how much time money they put in. To addressing personality disorders in, you know, these three or four percent of cases that actually make it to the family court is the fact that the stats seem to be so low.
What narcissist is going to go, yep, I'll be involved in your research? Then they're not going to do that. So, it's Most of the time it's when it's court ordered, you know, where are they getting these stats from? I believe they are way higher.
[:[00:32:06] Nova Gibson: Oh, well, lots, lots and lots. So I talk a lot about divorcing a narcissist. It's a really terribly confusing Time and it's just the abuse on steroids. You know, some people wonder if it's worse because they want to punish you for being able to live without them or for taking their property, which includes, you know, the children.
I talk a lot about co parenting in inverted commas, but parallel parenting. I talk a lot about the children of Narcissist and the adult children of Narcissist, whom we call ACON, A C O N and the dynamic that exists in every narcissistic family that keeps all the abuse behind closed doors where there are roles such as the scapegoat child and the the and the golden child and how those, those roles are put in place, are allocated to boost the ego of the narcissistic parent, pit their own children against each other through what we call triangulation which every narcissist does, especially in intimate relationships too.
Smear campaigns, flying monkeys, the hoover maneuver the hoover maneuver meaning to suck you back in. It comes from the hoover vacuum cleaner, suck you back in, not just to the intimate relationship, but into the vortex Of arguing, of coming out of no contact and much, much more. The love bomb, devalue, discard phase.
A lot about trauma bonding and Stockholm syndrome and everything that goes along with that.
[:[00:34:12] Nova Gibson: Absolutely. Okay. So, if you've been discarded by a narcissist or if you've managed to escape then you have to wrap your arms around yourself. This you've been conditioned to believe that anything you do for yourself is selfish.
It has a selfish agenda. And you sometimes. You feel like you can't get out of bed, you're so traumatized. So you might have to make yourself do it while it feels bad. Do what essentially should feel good, but please make the effort. Go and buy that special dress or that, I don't know, whatever it is that you were thinking about that you might have to stretch the budget a little bit.
Surround yourself with people who love you and Don't look at what the narcissist is doing because they are only manipulating someone else and that person will go through exactly what you have been through. The other thing to be mindful of the Hoover Maneuver.
Narcissists love to bait you around Christmas. Your birthday. They also love to use these times to discard you. Discard you on Valentine's Day. So that's something to be, to be prepared for also. That's interesting. Yeah. Because they want you obviously to suffer. And they want you to align them with that day for years to come.
So it's not just about suffering, it's about creating a conditioned response so that every Valentine's Day will you be thinking of that day as something, potentially happy, or will you be associating it with the trauma of being discarded and seeing them with the new supply, which is Just horrific.
They pick those days for a reason so that you Christmases, you remember them. You don't remember happy times. So, yeah, self love. Wrap your arms around yourself. You spoil yourself. And get lots and lots of support. Please don't think that they are with someone else and that they have changed for that person.
As sure as the sun will come up tomorrow, they have to drop the mask. It's like what goes up must come down, but it's not sustainable for them to be someone who they are not. They have to revert to who they really are eventually. So they will go through exactly the same cycle with the next person, but you're traumatized and you have a normal range of emotions.
So if you look, you will hurt and they want you to hurt. So you will see all the happy snaps. You will think, what's wrong with me? But why are they, what's, what's better about that person? Nothing. They just conditioned you to believe everything was your fault. They left you with no closure so that you would be frantic, seeking closure.
And they left you just an absolute basket case of feeling crazy because that's the goal of narcissistic abuse. So, there's nothing better with that person, but if you look, you will see what they want you to see and you will hurt. So don't ask people what they're doing. And don't look, don't have a sneak peek on Instagram at what their new target is doing.
That's contact. And that is like the heroin addict putting the needle back in their arm. That's looking at their Instagram. It's just as damaging. You may as well pick up the phone and call them. So lots of self love and no contact or minimal contact. Grey rock. If you share children or you have to see them.
Got it. Those are all very good tips. I just wanted to stress expect the Hoover. But You've got to be proactive, not reactive, because when you are craving, if you're that heroin addict and you're in terrible withdrawal, and the drug dealer who does not want a paying client to get clean, Waves a bag of drugs in front of you.
It's just a matter of time. So, you've got to block them everywhere. You've got to be proactive. And, and if they get that rose through, I don't know, through a flying monkey or, or something you just least expect that you forgot to block, do not think of it as flattering. Or that they've changed.
They are trying to regain control of you. We are not talking about isolated incidents. Anyone can have a bad day. We're talking about what you've got to trust your instincts around now, which is these consistent, ongoing patterns of behavior over space and time.
[:[00:39:53] Nova Gibson: Yeah, well, you know, a young child unfortunately you know, I can't speak to them. I can, I can speak to the parents in terms of like getting that child into counselling, getting them lots of support you know, obviously talking to them at an age appropriate level, but, but getting them their own support. But the adult child. of a narcissist. You're allowed to block a toxic parent. You don't have to see them because you're connected through DNA. That's really hard to come to terms with you when you've been conditioned over a lifetime through fear, obligation, and guilt that you owe this person because they birthed you and that narcissistic parent will get more reliant on you as they get older because all their supplies are drying up.
So they fall back very heavily on you. So the abuse ramps up because you're it and you don't owe them. We don't owe our parents. It's Just something we, in a loving relationship, we naturally do. But with a narcissistic parent, it's a debt. That's a debt you will never pay in full. You're allowed to block them.
And do not feel the need to explain yourself to them, number one, because they know why. They're abusing you, they're gaslighting you, they're, they're covertly abusing you, you know, giving you the little subtle insults under the guise of caring when they come over. Jesus, your house isn't As clean as it was last week, or have you put on a few pounds?
I'm really worried about your weight. You know, the backhanded compliment or really an insult, those types of things. You're allowed to go no contact. And you don't have to explain yourself to them, and definitely not to others who will be the recipients of a smear campaign and will see this only what the narcissistic parent has projected out to the world.
That you are the perfect family and they're the perfect parent, and you just, you are a wayward child who's ungrateful and just doesn't, you know. It's just not, it's seeing how much they did for you and, and is just being so cruel, trying to stay away from them in their hour of need when they're getting older.
That will be the type of thing they spread around. And you don't have to explain to those people who don't get it, who won't, you know, doesn't, who, those people who don't walk in your shoes, they won't get it, society doesn't get it, and the narcissists will make damn sure they don't see who you see. So, for those children your healing journey comes when you are in an environment that is not making you sick and means either no contact or very firm boundaries around contact, which may mean a hiatus, having a break, or just setting time limits and things like that.
[:[00:43:25] Nova Gibson: Great. Me too. Yeah. I'm so glad that you know, I was able to I guess provide a little bit of insight what you can do and the fact that it's not your fault and that you are conditioned to not trust yourself to feel crazy. That is the goal. To make you feel crazy. Crazy. It's not your fault. Yeah.
[:[00:43:58] Nova Gibson: My absolute pleasure. Erin and Ali, thank you so much for having me.
Absolutely. All right. Thanks, Nova.
