Episode 10
Episode 10: Everything You Wanted to Know About Therapy, Trauma & Healing with Randee Kogan
This is your go-to Podcast, where we help parents navigate the complexities of family life. Hosted by Ali Kessler of Greyson’s Choice, we’ll cover everything from understanding domestic violence to navigating the legal system, finding the right therapists, life hacks, family law, mental health, custody battles, and how to protect children in dangerous situations.
In this conversation, Ali speaks with Randee Kogan, a licensed psychotherapist and trauma specialist, about the importance of mental health, the process of finding the right therapist, and recognizing healthy versus unhealthy relationships. Randee shares her extensive experience in trauma therapy and discusses the signs of red flags in relationships, the impact of upbringing on relationship choices, and how to navigate feelings of jealousy and control. The conversation also touches on the challenges of dating after divorce and the importance of open communication in relationships. In this conversation, Randee Kogan discusses the importance of healing after divorce, recognizing red flags in relationships, and understanding financial control and abuse. She emphasizes the significance of identifying support systems and the journey through therapy, particularly in the context of trauma. The discussion also highlights the impact of trauma on individuals and the importance of finding joy in the healing process.
Takeaways
- Randi has 36 years of experience in trauma therapy.
- Building rapport with a therapist is essential for healing.
- It's okay to try multiple therapists before finding the right fit.
- Healthy relationships are characterized by communication, respect, and trust.
- Recognizing red flags is crucial for maintaining healthy relationships.
- Jealousy can be a sign of insecurity in a relationship.
- Control in a relationship can be disguised as care.
- Open communication is vital for addressing relationship concerns.
- Upbringing can significantly influence relationship dynamics.
- Dating after divorce requires self-reflection and open communication. It's important to identify if you're healed from a divorce.
- Unhealed feelings from past relationships can affect new ones.
- Financial control is a significant red flag in relationships.
- Losing your identity in a relationship is a warning sign.
- Communication is key in healthy relationships.
- Seek individual therapy before couples counseling in abusive situations.
- Trauma can be addressed at any point in life.
- Healing is a personal journey and can take time.
- Finding joy in small achievements is crucial during recovery.
About Randee Kogan:
Randee Kogan, L.M.H.C., C.S.A., C.D.V., C.F.T.
Randee Kogan has committed her professional career to helping victims of trauma as well as educating and advising the public about sexual violence, domestic violence, and trauma. She has treated victims of Bill Cosby, a serial rapist in West Palm Beach, and numerous Jeffery Epstein victims with whom she continues to work with to this day.
Randee can be seen as an expert in the Netflix documentary Ghislaine Maxwell: Filthy Rich. She has also been featured on 60 Minutes Australia, several Podcasts, The Dr. Oz Show, and NBC news. She was also a keynote speaker for Beit Ruth’s Conference Girls & Women at Risk of Violence: The Global Challenge and at the Turn on the Light Conference. She will be featured as an expert in two additional documentaries that are currently in production. Randee has presented at various conferences and other speaking engagements on the topics of sexual and domestic violence, compassion fatigue for professionals, sextortion, grooming, etc., over the span of her career.
Randee has worked as a psychotherapist in a variety of professional settings, including hospital psychiatric units, substance abuse, mental health centers, courthouses, and private practice for the past 36 years. She is certified in sexual violence, domestic violence, and forensic traumatology. She is an expert in the field of trauma and PTSD, having testified in several cases involving sexual violence cases and domestic violence cases. She currently provides individual and group therapy, professional supervision, collaboration, and consultation.
Randee collaborates with several professionals and agencies and has provided consultations with the FBI on sex trafficking and sexual exploitation cases. Throughout her career, she has collaborated with attorneys in several high-profile sexual violence cases.
Contact Randee: www.kogancounseling.com
About Ali Kessler: Ali Kessler is a writer, marketing professional, passionate parent advocate, and founder of Greyson’s Choice, a 501(c)(3) created to raise awareness about the risk of domestic abuse on children. Greyson’s Choice was founded by Ali Kessler in memory of her sweet, vibrant, and fearless 4.5-year-old son, Greyson, who was murdered by his biological father in a murder-suicide during an unsupervised, court-approved visit in Ft. Lauderdale, FL, in 2021. This came just hours after her petition for a domestic violence injunction was denied by a Broward County judge, citing that the “petitioner has failed to allege any overt acts by the respondent which would constitute domestic violence under Florida Statute.”
Ali’s advocacy efforts culminated in successfully passing Greyson’s Law during the 2023 legislative session. This bill now requires the court to consider threats against ex-partners or spouses when making child visitation and custody determinations in the court, expanding to include the following factors: evidence of domestic violence, whether a parent in the past or currently has reasonable cause to believe that they or a minor child is, or has been in imminent danger of becoming the victim of domestic/sexual violence by the other parent, even if no other legal action has been brought or is currently pending in court.
Contact Ali:
Transcript
Randee Kogan
[:Randee helps me personally, as I learned to live with my grief. So I wanted to share her wisdom with the world. Hi, Randee, thanks for speaking with us today and sharing your wealth of knowledge.
[:[00:00:35] Ali Kessler: I can't wait to discuss some topics. I wanted to talk with you in particular because we know how important mental health is and finding the right specialist.
So before we begin, if you can just tell our listeners a little bit about yourself and your background.
[:I had the opportunity to work on psychiatric units and facilities. When I got into the courthouse, when I had the opportunity to work in the courthouse, I started working with victims of violent crimes around 2004. When I started working with those victims, I felt As though this is where my passion lied and my favorite part about working with victims and helping them through the healing process is watching that process right in front of me, watching them go from feeling hopeless and helpless and raw To learning the strength that they have within and what they're capable of and how they can incorporate whatever horrific trauma that they've endured into their lives with being able to live a fruitful, satisfied life as best as they can.
[:[00:02:23] Randee Kogan: Absolutely. I work quite often with individuals who struggle with anxiety mood disorders other thought disorders dissociative identity disorder, which comes from complex trauma. So yes, I do. I work with other aspects of symptoms and adjustment disorders, individuals who've experienced stress in their lives that they just need time to overcome.
[:[00:02:59] Randee Kogan: custody evaluator. I did. I worked on dependency evaluations for about a year and then custody evaluations for about.
Two years, two to three years in the Broward County Courthouse when custody evaluation was under the family court system.
[:[00:03:20] Randee Kogan: I absolutely loved it. This was a, this was around 1999. I did that till about 2004. And it was, Incredible. I had the opportunity to truly evaluate each parent and observe the interaction of parent and child in each of their homes.
And I was able to speak to collateral sources and then come up with a recommendations report to the judge and assist the judge in the process of recommending time sharing and parental responsibility.
[:Or can it be general?
[:And it's okay if it's not the first therapist you meet. It's okay if it's not the second therapist you meet. That individual, you need to feel like you can open up and feel a sense of safe emotional safety and trust.
[:[00:05:04] Randee Kogan: Yes, I always recommend that it not being when they feel like they have no other options, when somebody feels symptoms coming that are not typical anxiety symptoms, they feel that there are depressive symptoms is starting to. impact their daily functioning, I would absolutely recommend that they speak to somebody and find out what the source is.
Good tip.
[:[00:05:43] Randee Kogan: Yeah, so one main resource for, to find private practitioners is through psychology today.
com. Okay. What I like about, what I like about psychology today. com is they can filter through insurance the preference of gender what issues they want to make sure that particular therapist is versed in. They have an opportunity to see a photo a bio. And many therapists also will offer free consultations where they have the opportunity to ask questions.
I think it's important to make sure that particular therapist will meet your needs for therapy.
[:So I'm sure that does take a few tries.
[:[00:06:45] Ali Kessler: Okay. Let's talk real quick about relationships because I know that's something that is a big topic for a lot of my listeners and a lot of people that ask me questions. They're in relationships. They may not know that they are in domestic violence.
Maybe they're not, but let's talk about the red flags, how someone could recognize if they are in a healthy or not so healthy relationship.
[:[00:07:26] Ali Kessler: Okay. What are they?
[:Depending upon somebody's age, one may look for financial stability, relationships in their own families. If they're older and have children, if they have children, what is the relationship with the children's other parent and why, right? Why do they get along so well? Because I think of the children first, we put the children before our own feelings.
Why don't you get along? Is it a power struggle? So that's going to say a lot as well, right? So financial stability as well as familial stability. If. People are younger and they're in their 20s. What kind of relationships do they have with their families, right? So that's it's very important that we look at the the whole gamut of what's important to me, right?
It's important to me that somebody is loyal to me Somebody is honest that I can trust them that I feel like I have a team right that I feel like I'm being respected that I feel that what I am giving to the relationship, I'm also receiving. So reciprocity is important.
[:So they self sabotage or, they don't think they're worthy of something else.
[:And if that's comfortable, you're going to seek out those relationships. As you get older, if you have an opportunity to heal from those experiences or be able to take yourself out of it and look at the situation objectively as you get older and more aware of what's going on, then you can look at for somebody who does not possess those qualities and will immediately see those qualities as red flags, right?
So how does
[:[00:10:34] Randee Kogan: I'm really glad you brought that up because many times what people will do is say They possess this, and this.
They're communicative and they're supportive, but they're not always very honest. Okay? So they'll start negotiating or justifying some characteristics that aren't very healthy and justifying the red flags. Now, when we talk about red flags, what are we speaking of? Because let's be honest, when you meet somebody for the first time. They're not going to smack you in the face to give you an idea that they're physically abusive. They're not going to call you a name when they first meet you. So sadly you had mentioned earlier when you're looking for a therapist, there's like this inter interview, right?
This formal interview. If we think about getting to know another person, there's this informal interview going on, right? That's an opportunity to get to know somebody, to see. What qualities did they possess that are attractive to me or that meet my needs and values? So that's a very important time.
So if you're having a conversation with somebody, when I'm working with somebody in their twenties, early twenties, and I say, if you're meeting somebody for the first time and they're starting to bring up sexual Innuendos or sexual comments and focusing on that. We need to look at that as a red flag, right?
Because it's really not something that should be addressed when you first meet somebody, right? So look at something like that as a red flag. When you're going to a restaurant and the hostess is seating you somewhere and how do they treat you? The waitstaff. How do they treat the staff there? Sounds so silly, but it's something to think about.
I worked with a woman years ago and she was in a horribly violent marriage for about 15 years. And it took her a number of years to get out of the relationship. She had gone through therapy. She really worked on herself for many years and felt very strong and ready to date. She went out with a gentleman one night and they went out to dinner.
They were looking at the menus and having conversation. When the wait, when the waitress came over, he ordered for the two of them without asking her what she would like. After he ordered, she put the menu down, she got up and she walked out of the restaurant because that was a red flag to her. Wow. To her, that indicated that this man is going to be controlling.
And I am not going to put myself in a situation like that again.
[:[00:13:26] Randee Kogan: He makes me feel safe. Exactly. And that's when we go back to, okay, what were our past experiences?
Did we heal from those experiences? If you've never been in a situation like that, what are we looking for? If you have an individual that's sitting with you who is only speaking about themselves, we need to look at that as a red flag, right? Because when we're getting to know somebody, this conversation should absolutely be back and forth, should be reciprocal when we're getting to know someone.
So that would be a red flag as well. I would say so. Okay. What other red flags? What other red flags can we think of?
[:[00:14:12] Randee Kogan: In general.
[:So I think that's even harder. I was talking with somebody for 10 years. Yeah. She said she was with him for 10 years. And one day she woke up and looked next to her and she was like, I don't even recognize the man in my bed. There, red flags, obviously, besides. The obvious, would be things that I went through, which is coercive control and just that passive aggressive abuse where someone controls you, but you're not even sure that you're being controlled.
[:Do they care about what you're wearing and they want you to be safe or do they want to control your wardrobe, right? Asking about who's in your phone. It's huge with young adults and teens. Show me your Snapchat. Why do you have all of these people on your Instagram? Okay, so social media control is very big.
Where they look at that as they love me and, they want to make sure that nobody else is flirting with me. What I'm hearing then is that they don't trust you. So you're right. It can be a very fine line between this person really cares about me. And this person is starting to control me.
Jealousy.
[:I'm just going to learn to live with that, feeling of jealousy and walk away. But that's hard.
[:If we're talking about a healthy relationship, then that individual should feel comfortable and safe to go up to their partner and say, I felt a little uneasy when this individual liked your photo. And have a conversation about it, right? If we're having to go around that conversation and say, Okay, I'm not going to check their phone.
I don't have to check their phone. I'm going to look at that as a red flag. But, and on the other end, if you have somebody in the relationship because we need to talk about technology, it's a major, Part of relationship these days. If somebody is constantly, using their phone in secret, putting a passcode on and carrying it with them everywhere.
Is that a red flag? That should be a conversation that in a healthy relationship, you can say, I'm noticing that, you're carrying your phone a lot. Do you feel the need to, do you feel uncomfortable leaving your phone with me?
[:I'm just curious.
[:And it's not that you have to give somebody a password okay? It's not about that I shouldn't have to. And if that's the kind of relationship that you have, where that's privacy for the two of you, but you have open communication about it that's the dynamic of your relationship.
[:[00:18:38] Randee Kogan: Exactly. And that's why it's so important to take the time and get to know somebody, right? Okay. We don't want to rush that process because that process is setting the stage for, the continuation of that particular relationship. So it's very important to really use that time to communicate.
[:[00:19:16] Randee Kogan: Absolutely. And I think conversations about the relationship and including the partner if it's a, a serious relationship and making sure that there are, there's open communication because that can absolutely work.
There are many scenarios where, Divorced parents are able to communicate very comfortably and openly for the sake of the children and significant others are a part of that. And I think that is healthy and absolutely attainable. When that doesn't happen is when one or both partners are more focused on themselves and a power struggle with that other parent rather than the child.
When the focus moves away from the child. Then we don't have a healthy scenario there.
[:[00:20:19] Randee Kogan: I think it's important to identify within you, are you healed from this divorce?
Is there anything from that divorce that I'm still carrying with me? And if that's the case, I would recommend working through that before bringing that into your next relationship. And not because you're carrying baggage. No. But if you have some unhealed feelings about it, we don't want that to become the foundation of the next relationship.
You deserve to be happy after a divorce. You deserve to be in a happy, healthy relationship. Make sure you feel that way as well.
[:[00:21:10] Randee Kogan: want and not a need, right?
[:So we know what, what we should be looking for, the respect, the love, the communication. And you did say a couple of red flags already, but what is maybe one that someone wouldn't even think? So I know financial Any kind of control of finances is definitely a red flag.
[:When we talk about financial abuse, what does that look like? Cause that's very common. You're exactly right. A red flag is when you go into the relationship working. And your partner tells you, you don't need to work. I would prefer that you stayed home and took care of the home, if there's no children involved.
I can take, I work and I make enough for the both of us. You don't need to work. That's a red flag. If you're going to school and wanting to further your education, and your partner is dissuading you from either starting or continuing, that's a red flag. If you're, okay, because, what is that saying? Go back to working at the job you're working at now when you want to further your degree to further your career.
If your partner wants to stunt your career, your partner is planning to control your financial situation.
[:[00:22:51] Randee Kogan: No question. No, I feel like a lot of
[:A lot of people would want that. So that's definitely a difficult because it does take away your power.
[:If that's not happening and you're feeling stuck or stunted and you can't communicate this and seek the support that you feel you need because the person that you're going to seek support from is the very person holding you down. Let's look at that. Okay.
[:Do you just say, I'm not comfortable with that?
[:And that person sitting with you, if you're in a healthy relationship, will say, what are you thinking of? I think that's a great idea. Let's come up with some ideas. Sure. If the person sitting with you says, you don't feel like this is enough for you, I'm not enough for you that's something now that you recognize as a red flag and this person is not wanting me to grow. This person does not support my needs, wants, desires.
[:What do they do?
[:So many times they'll protect their partner for, you know a long time if they may, if they're staying in that relationship.
[:[00:25:49] Randee Kogan: If it's an abusive situation where that individual feels like they're being controlled, I do not recommend couples counseling at that time.
Number one, typically the partner will go to appease you. They don't want to change the relationship because they're in control. So why would they want to change that relationship? Yeah. Okay, so it's not going to be productive. What I recommend is that they seek, that individual seeks individual therapy first.
Work through their feelings and emotions and thoughts within the relationship to, in order to gain the strength that is already in there, in order to be able to make a decision about is this relationship where I want to be? Is this relationship meeting my needs? going into a couple situation will not provide them with that, with an abusive person.
[:[00:26:58] Randee Kogan: Exactly. And unfortunately individuals who are seeking power and control in a relationship rather than what a relationship truly has to offer, doesn't have the insight to change or the desire.
And if they don't have that insider desire to change, therapy doesn't exist to them.
[:As we see in, a lot of celebrity instances the abuse actually is. I don't want to say genetic because it's not genetic, but learned behavior.
[:And unfortunately, because of that, that blocks the ability for awareness.
[:[00:28:10] Randee Kogan: and many times on average, it takes an individual seven times to permanently leave a relationship. It is not. Easy. When people, when you hear people who have never experienced domestic violence to say if anybody put their hands on me, I would just leave, or I would do this, I would do that.
People need to understand the mental and emotional piece of abuse. Mental and emotional abuse starts there. And as time goes on, you, the abuser makes a victim believe that they don't have options. That they don't deserve to have options. And when that happens, it's much, much more difficult to leave a situation.
Absolutely. Now do you think that someone ever graduates from therapy? Is there a certain point where you're like, okay, I think, you've really completed your steps and, we don't need to continue.
That decision is always made between myself and my client, right? Because they're the only ones who know.
When they're ready in terms of their strength and their feeling of independence, their feeling of value, right? So it's important that the therapist and individual make that decision as a team, right? Because if I tell somebody, okay, now you're done, what am I doing? I'm telling them what to do. Yeah, exactly.
And we don't want that, especially when they have moved, they're moving through the healing process in a very healthy manner and they feel good about themselves. We want to make sure that they know that their life, their decisions. So we want to do it as a team. Okay,
[:I don't, not getting anything out of it. What could you tell that person to make them really understand why they're there?
[:They're ready to change something in their life that they feel is not working for them, or is not healthy, or doesn't feel good, right? It is up to that individual to seek out therapy, and if they're not ready, but they want to still be present. That's something that can be addressed by a therapist.
Between the therapist and the client. Sometimes they're not ready to talk about what happened to them. They're not ready to become vulnerable. So that's an opportunity for the therapist and client to build a rapport with one another, get to know their outlets, get to know their support system. So when this individual is ready.
You'll already have that information to draw from to help them jumpstart this healing process that we know is going to be difficult for them.
[:[00:31:32] Randee Kogan: That's exactly and many times an individual is coming in Thinking that they're accountable for much of what happened in the relationship. So there's a lot of shame and guilt So that and guilt Those are probably the top two signs that I see when people are not ready to speak and that is okay because it is on their terms when they're ready to tell their story.
And then we can address once they feel that they're in a safe environment, like we talked about in the beginning about finding that therapist that they feel safe. And it may take four or five sessions for them to feel safe. And that's okay. Because it's our job to go at their pace. I had a woman years ago, I run a trauma therapy group and I've run trauma therapy groups for decades and years ago when I was working in the courthouse, I was running a women's trauma therapy group and I had a woman come into group and she came every single week, did not speak, she would go through, she wore a very large brimmed hat.
Every session, okay, and she would futz around with her purse, what's in her purse, for five months. This person showed up every week, and one session, somebody was talking, and she was, the other, this woman was ready, and from that day on, she was an active participant in group. But it was on her terms when she felt ready, and that's okay.
[:[00:33:12] Randee Kogan: Sometimes people need that space. They need that space and they need to be given permission that they have that space to speak on their terms about their story.
[:[00:33:32] Randee Kogan: Trauma is an experience somebody goes through where their life was threatened, or they experience sexual violence, or they perceive their life as being threatened, or they witness something that has to do with a loss of life, a threatened of life, or violence.
It is something that they experience these trauma reactions. Such as some that we're speaking of, some symptoms that we've spoke of already, depression, anxiety Vigilance, hypervigilance. Trauma impacts somebody's life, their daily life, where they feel like their future life has been impacted.
[:If someone went through something traumatic, sometimes they don't even know it.
[:Many times there are levels of impact, and not for everybody. Sexual violence, I see this more individuals who've experienced sexual violence as minors. The first is the initial reaction of what happened, right? Whatever that may be for somebody. Everybody reacts differently. After that, okay, how am I going to deal with what happened?
And many people are not ready to deal with the pain of trauma. So many people self-medicate and they self-medicate in very different ways. Some do through drugs and alcohol, right? Some do through harming themselves, self-harm through cutting. Some do through excessive exercise or controlling their eating habits,
[:[00:35:25] Randee Kogan: Some do through shopping any outlet that is the focus is off of emotion. But that only lasts for so long. And people use this saying, wherever you go, there you are. And it's true. So at some point when people are finished running, avoiding self medicating, those who do, again, this isn't everybody, when then they're ready to settle down and give up some of these behaviors or actions that are no longer working, they That's when the emotions will start surfacing.
Okay, and at that time, typically people are ready to address their trauma. But that can come at all different aspects of their lives. And I tell people, it is never too late. Yep. It doesn't matter if the trauma occurred 55 years ago. It is never too late to heal or address your trauma.
[:[00:36:31] Randee Kogan: right? And that's okay.
[:[00:36:37] Randee Kogan: Exactly. And that's what we're looking for, right?
We're looking for that release. And why do people go through trauma therapy, right? Why do I want to talk about it? Why do I want to rehash it? What is talking going to do? And that's a question that people constantly ask. The goal of trauma therapy is not to forget about what happened because that will never ever happen.
The goal is to desensitize the intensity of those symptoms that are affecting your daily life. So you can live your life knowing that you've experienced your trauma but that your trauma is not taking over your life.
[:[00:37:24] Randee Kogan: constantly, right?
[:I will never get over this. This is something I have to live through every single day. And it's just, Getting to the next day and how exactly your life still have meaning and joy while living with something traumatic
[:little joys. That's exactly right. They're so important.
[:[00:38:17] Randee Kogan: It's okay. That's right. Cause the next day you're gonna get out.
[:[00:38:32] Randee Kogan: I would love that. Yeah, that would be great.
[:[00:38:42] Randee Kogan: Please don't feel it's too late. I want to say that over and over again. Please don't feel that you don't deserve. Please don't feel that just because you're out of a traumatic situation that it's just going to be forgotten about. Please know that there is support out there for you. Individuals who struggle financially, many, would like to say most, but I cannot speak for everybody, but many practitioners will do a sliding scale.
They also do have online platforms better help TALK SPACE. I worked for TALK SPACE years ago as a trauma therapist, so there are options, self support groups. There are many support groups out there. Yeah I run a trauma therapy group, Facebook groups, any type of group where you can feel a sense of belonging and know you are not alone because I can tell you, you are definitely not alone.
Yeah, social media is great for that as well, to just find a community of people going through something similar, or maybe not similar, but you have similar feelings.
Or similar interests even, that would help too. Yes, very important.
Okay. That's definitely very helpful, and I can't wait to have you back.
Thank you so much. I'm so happy I was able to be here with you. Me too.
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