Episode 2: Unmasking Coercive Control with Dr. Cocchiola

Ali Kessler Intro:

Hello, and welcome to today's edition of Grey Minds Think Alike. I'm your host, Ali Kessler, and our co-host for today is Erin Cooper. Joining us is Dr. Christine Cocchiola, a coercive control expert, educator, researcher, and survivor. She's a clinician and coach specializing in the traumatic experiences of adult and child victims of coercive control.

As a tenured college professor of social work for over twenty years, Dr. Christine is passionate about social justice. She volunteers for local domestic violence and sexual assault agencies. Welcome, and thank you so much for chatting with us today. I've wanted to speak with you for a while now. I am a victim, of course, and control, and I have a lot to say about it, but I'll stay on topic. So, thank you.

Chapter 1: Understanding Coercive Control

Dr. Cocchiola (: 01:27

Thank you so much for having me, Ali. It's an honor, too, and I'm so grateful. For this work that you're doing, because we need. We need victims to know they're not alone, right, and that there are some horrifying experiences that people have because of these abusers. It has to be stopped. Yeah.

Ali Kessler (: 01:45

What I'd like to actually start with is if you can define what coercive control is for our listeners because I think that is the number one question I get asked.

Dr. Cocchiola (: 01:55

Sure, sure. So, first of all, This needs to be a movement. So, the problem with coercive control is people are not actually understanding. They are actually saying it's physical violence or it's not physical violence. The reality is coercive control is the underpinning of all abuse. It's about one person exerting power and control over another. And this is exactly what these abusers do.is they are intent, their intent is not initially to, you know, they don't wear a sign that says I'm an abuser. They show up as charlatans. They are very good at being savvy and mirroring who they are with, and your abuser probably chose you. I'm saying this to every listener because they want to be like you. They wish they were you, but they know they're not. And so, what they do is they mirror us, but then as the relationship continues, they begin to exert more control, particularly if we begin to see through their mask, if we begin to see that they are not truly the people we thought that they were. Once we become even slightly disappointed with an abuser, they are going to elevate in their coercion and control because that is something that they have, they hold so much shame for, that they don't want others to see them for who they are. And they certainly don't want you. You're exposing them. That's what you're doing. So coercive control is basically a liberty crime, as Dr. Evan Stark talked about, and it is this idea where one person exerts power and control over another. It is often done covertly. It's very insidious. It's nuanced.

But it can be physical violence. What I tell people is physical violence is not the defining characteristic. It doesn't mean that it doesn't include physical violence. And sadly, as so many know, physical violence is literally oftentimes their last attempt to retain control, even if it means they harm themselves or their own family members and their own children. So, the best way is to retaliate against a victim who is trying to and not necessarily exposed but to the perpetrator. It feels like you're exposing them. And the best way to retaliate is to come at you in the way that they know will hurt you the absolute most. And sadly, we see this over and over again where perpetrators are willing to do virtually anything for revenge. And so, for your listeners, I want them to hear loud and clear. Coercive Control is the underpinning of all abuse.

Every single aspect of abuse where someone is trying to exert power and control over another that's coercive control. It can be physical, but it often starts off with psychological tactics like gaslighting, manipulation, intimidation, and isolation. And then it segues as the victim begins to try to escape, it will become, you know, if it wasn't already financial abuse, it will become financial abuse, and it will become vexatious litigation. And then always, the moms that I deal with or that I work with all the time, I have the honor of working with. These moms are dealing with abusers who are doing anything to maliciously fracture the attachment of those children with their protective parents.

Ali Kessler (: 05:05

Right. I have so many questions. I'm curious. Do you think the abuser knows what they're doing? Like, do they know that this is coercive control, or are they just maybe have personality disorders like narcissistic or just some sort of... I'm curious at your take on that.

Dr. Cocchiola (: 05:24

No, it's a great question. Actually, Dr. Ramani, who is the best in narcissistic abuser in the world, right? She and I recently did a training together, and what we talk about, and we both have the same idea, is that abusers are like a one through 10 like spectrum, right? And Dr. Ramani says the people she deals with are like maybe the one through six or seven. The people that I deal with, your abuser, Ali, was a 10.

Chapter 2: The Spectrum of Abuse

Dr. Cocchiola (: 05:51

And so, what happens when you are so significantly character logically disordered is that you actually begin to believe your story. You believe your story. You believe you’re right. You believe you have a right for revenge. And so, you know, the more significantly disordered someone is, the more they will believe it. The lower level, say you're like a three or a four abuser, you know, you're just, you're really like harmful, but you're not necessarily out for revenge. Those people, maybe there's even an ability to slightly change a little bit. Maybe they go to therapy, and they get a little intervention. Overall, the moms that I work with, every single one of them are dealing with what we call the dark tetrad. The dark tetrad is narcissism.

Okay, it's this idea of being grandiose; I'm better than everyone else. I certainly want people to love me and adore me, and I want to come off that way. But I also have Machiavellianism, where I'm extremely manipulative. I can manipulate a whole court system if I'd like to and get them to believe that I'm not an abuser and that everybody else is. I have psychopathy. I actually am willing to break the law.

I might do things just above the law, but I actually am willing to break the law. And we see this, of course, with homicide, femicide, and filicide. But beyond that, and this is the big one, is sadism. I want to see the person who I believe hurt me suffer. I want nothing more. I'd like to see that person suffer. Exactly.

Ali Kessler (: 07:26

Which is what happened to me, ultimately. Yeah, it's absolutely, absolutely crazy. It's almost like they believe they're above the law because they're godlike, and rules don't apply.

Dr. Cocchiola (: 07:40

And or they don't even care anymore. When you're so hell-bent on revenge, you don't even care anymore that you might get caught or that you might have to kill yourself, right, to basically not go to jail. You don't care anymore. You're willing to do whatever it takes. And so, this pathology, I believe, is the root of literally all evil in the world. It's certainly something that permeates society, capitalistic society in particular. We see it all the time in business and everywhere. And the problem is, is that we are not pivoting to the perpetrators. We are not like shining a bright light on what this trait is because, you know, I have many clients who, you know, they go to court, and the judges either refuse to see or they don't get it. They don't understand it. You go to a criminal attorney, and criminal attorneys know this pathology.

Ali Kessler (: 08:33

Interesting.

Dr. Cocchiola (: 08:35

They know it because they deal with criminals all the time. And so I've had that. I've had clients now who are hiring criminal attorneys to help them in family court. It's a good idea actually. Yeah.

Ali Kessler (: 08:40

Wow, that's very interesting. yeah. Is there a way for someone that's a 10 on that spectrum to lower and get help? Or are they just so far gone?

Dr. Cocchiola (: 08:53

I am like the least black-and-white thinker you will ever meet. But when it comes to this evil, there is no reason to put any hope that this person would ever, ever be a decent human being. And frankly, it drives me nuts when people say that he loves his children. He does not love his children. He never loved his children. He may have acted like he loved his children because that's what he needed to do to fill his ego.

But he never ever loved his children. And I'm saying there are some female perpetrators, but the reality is women do not have the same social capital. They just don't in the world. Men have the ability to oppress at a much higher rate.

Ali Kessler (: 09:33

That's true. I mean, I always say it goes both ways, but statistics say that it mostly happens with men.

Chapter 3: The Impact of Coercive Control on Families

Dr. Cocchiola (: 09:39

Absolutely, 35 % of women in their lifetime will suffer violence in the world. If 35 % of women are suffering violence, what of the women who have never been hit but they are suffering oppression over and over in their homes that, frankly, they don't even know is oppression. I was with a person for basically 35 years of my life. I met him when I was 16. Divorced him after 27 years and 11 months, did not know he was an abuser till about year 11. And by the way, I teach on this topic every single semester in my college classes. Yeah. It's so insidious. The more savvy the abuser is. So, some abusers are just; they are dysregulated very easily. These are the abusers we see who do physically harm almost very quickly. They elevate very quickly because they're not; they don't have good coping skills, and so but some abusers are really good at never laying a hand on you, but literally, it's psychological torture. That's what they do, and so-

Ali Kessler (: 10:39

So, in your case, how did you know at year 11 that you were being abused?

Dr. Cocchiola (: 10:47

Yeah, so it was actually year 20 of being married. It was 27 years of knowing him. I had a couple of moments. I also was locked out of the house. I also had the electricity turned off in the garage—I mean, many, many reasons. And I was not always tying them together because, as you know, victims become trauma-bonded to the abuser. And they also disassociate from the bad. And when you have children with this person, the last thing you want to do is disrupt your family, right? But then my abuser would tell me if I ever left him, I'd lose my children. So, this is what they do, right? They intimidate, they isolate, and they try their best to make you think that you are crazy; there's something wrong with you. And then they start this same narrative with the children, oftentimes.

Erin Cooper (: 11:33

So, I wanted to ask—for someone who is maybe just realizing that they're in a relationship that involves coercive control, what are some of the first steps that you would tell them to take?

Chapter 4: Recognizing Coercive Control

Dr. Cocchiola (: 11:45

Okay, so the first steps are probably as a therapist, right? So, a clinical intervention is to keep a list of all of the bad things they're doing and to write them down. You can't just put it on your phone and make sure you hide that list so that he doesn't see it. But the idea behind that is so that as soon as he's nice or you think that maybe things are getting better, he's gone to therapy twice, and you're disassociating from the bad, I want you to have that list to re-expose yourself to the harmful person. I want you to ask yourself if this was your sister or your daughter and they were being treated this way, would you be concerned? Because what we often do is we say, he's not that bad, but then we can't imagine another person we love actually experiencing the same behaviors. I want you to also ask, is it a pattern? Because that's why we write it down. See, people will say, you know, he's only done it once or twice. Well, twice is a pattern.

And so really understanding that you don't deserve to be treated that way, but also that knowing that by escaping, there's a lot at stake. So, I want also for your listeners to know that there's no judgment if you stay. Sometimes it feels safer to stay, right? But beyond that, do not call that person a narcissist or an abuser. You don't let them know you're onto them. What you have to do is actually pretend that you're not onto them because that's how you remain safe in the relationship. And so until you're ready to actually escape and you have an escape plan in place, you're going to live with your mom, you're taking the kids, you know, all of that. And, you know, that's another conversation. I mean, the reality is course of control intensifies in over 95 % of the cases into post-separation abuse. The abuse gets worse when you leave, and they use the court system and the children and they weaponize, right? As I'm sure you know, Ali, from your own circumstances. So, knowing that we're telling victims to escape but knowing that it's going to get worse, it's about, we call it, radical acceptance. You almost have to accept that this is what it is. And the one saving grace is that your children get to know you, get to know you. Because see, when you're in that relationship, they really, they don't get to know you as yourself because you're always regulating yourself. You're living on eggshells.

Ali Kessler (: 13:55

Right.

Dr. Cocchiola (: 14:16

And so, they have a new window of, "This is Mommy now." Wow, Mommy's not as anxious. Mommy isn't letting that person boss them around. Mommy is creating boundaries. So, our children can learn so much by us escaping, but in no way am I judging anyone for staying.

Ali Kessler (: 14:33

Well, in some cases like mine, we didn't live together. So I didn't have to escape. I was already in a separate home, but that didn't stop the abuse.

Dr. Cocchiola (: 14:46

No, no, because he knew his intent. So, his intent when he met you, and this is what people have to know, is they may show up as good people or decent human beings, or maybe it's just so you know, a little event and you have a baby, but the point is that his intent is to exert power and control. If his intent wasn't to exert power and control, he would have been amicable in deciding who's taking care of your little one and who's not. There would have been collaboration. This is why I always get really frustrated when people are forced into co-parenting counseling. It's like you can't co-parent with this person. They're an abuser.

Ali Kessler (: 15:25

Right. No, I mean, I was reading a book called Co-parenting with a Narcissist, and yeah, it's very difficult. So, if their first step is to make a list and write everything down and keep it and then possibly leave, how do you get the courts to really hear you? Because as of right now, coercive control, especially in Florida, is not a part of any law. It's not a part of Greyson's law. We tried to get the verbiage in there. They made us take it out. And it's not defined in domestic violence. It's really hard to prove, and it's really hard to get judges to hear that someone causing all these crazy antics is abusing you when there's no physical abuse.

Chapter 5: Navigating the Court System

Dr. Cocchiola (: 15:50

Yeah, so I would say that we are embarking on a brand-new world where we have seven states that have codified coercive control. Thankfully in the UK and in Queensland, Australia, it's criminalized. But codifying coercive control is a form of domestic abuse is the first step. The second step is to have it enforced. And we're not finding that judges are interested or care enough to actually enforce the idea that someone can be suffering beyond physical violence.

And so that's what we're working on. I think we're a ways away from it. We had a mother in California who won a five-year protective order. Of course, he's appealing it. But she won a five-year protective order protecting her, not her child because he was making her do 100 chores a day. The judge clearly saw that that was oppression, right?

So, but like when you say I'm getting, you know, emails that are threatening me or I'm, you know, he told me that he was coming home at five, but he always came home at nine and he took, you know, $100,000 of our family's money. We have the judges who are not really; they see that as high conflict. And they see, that means there's two people engaged. And I really, you know, I'm so grateful again, Dr. Romney said that I was the one who told her that, you know, like it's not high conflict. It's not. It's abuse. When there's two people who are quote unquote high conflict, there's one person who's an abuser, period. And you know, but the problem is, is that that's not how the court perceives it. The court perceives it that it's otherwise, right? And so really, I think, you know, sadly, part of my own coaching with protective parents is how do you get out the least scathed? How do you get the least court professionals involved, the least?

Ali Kessler (: 17:45

Correct.

Dr. Cocchiola (: 18:01

Because they are all going for 50-50. They have empathy for men. The moment a man shows up and says that he's a good father and he wants to be involved, they're like, great, we got to give him 50-50. I don't care if he threw your mother down the stairs last year. I have a case. The child prevented the mother from going down and hitting her head on the basement floor. The child witnessed it. The child doesn't want to see the father. The courts are saying 50-50 for this kid who does not want to go see her father. She's 12 years old now. So, this is the world we're living in. How do you get...the least scathe because the more interaction you have with the court system, the more emboldened the abusers using it right, the more emboldened the abuser gets and then the more retaliatory he is, so how do we quiet down that part of him we kind of just slink away, and it's not about walking on eggshells and satisfying him it's about being in personal power and knowing that if you can slowly move yourself away, you actually might be safer because you're not going to be poking, he's a dragon, and you're not going to be poking him. Which is very hard when you're owed child support, when you lose the house, when you don't have your car because he took the title to your car. I mean, this is not easy. I'm not suggesting any of this is easy. I'm suggesting that some, that we, cannot put your faith in the court. You just can't. The court is not going to have your back, very rarely. And now, if you were punched in the face and you had a bruise,

Ali Kessler (: 19:09

Right.

Chapter 6: The Role of the Legal System

Dr. Cocchiola (: 19:10

then maybe, but then we can talk about Amber Heard, who was punched in the face and had a bruise. And she had a rich partner, ex -partner, who was able to bring a court case right out in public and appeal his case. And he was able to create bots, and he was able to create a false narrative about her that wasn't true. I was one of 10 people on her amicus brief for her appeal because she is, of course, a control victim.

Ali Kessler (: 19:25

Wow. Yes, I did watch her Netflix special.

Dr. Cocchiola (: 19:29

Yes.

Erin Cooper (: 19:35

And that idea of being exposed, I think the court system contributes to that as well, especially in Ali's case, he had tracked her to the courthouse. So, he knew that his fear of being exposed was one of the last straw moments for him. So, I think that that's something you have to be really delicate with too, right? This fear of their mask coming off in public.

Dr. Cocchiola (: 20:01

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. I think there's a lot of different theories out there. I believe in the theory that we're all born a little more ego compromised or ego hearty, ego resilient. And I think all protective mothers were probably born a little ego resilient because they are going through a living hell, and they are living. They're not literally jumping off a bridge because of everything that's happened to them. And so I think abusers are probably born a little more ego-compromised. It's DNA, interparietal, generational trauma; there are a lot of variables, and there's nothing wrong with it. Many of us, you know, people with three children, they might have one child who's a little heartier and can withstand challenges and another child who might have a little more challenges with it. The good news is that when kids are given protective parts in their development and they attach securely to a protective parent, that ego compromise turns into ego resiliency. It's a really wonderful thing. The abuser didn't have that.

The abuser grew up in a family system where they were shamed. They couldn't be authentically themselves. They were not loved unconditionally. And that shame is literally all they're trying to cover up every single day of their life. So yes, exposure. Yes, calling them out on a bad deed. Absolutely, these are the things that they cannot handle. Literally, it's like a death sentence to them. And so, you know, if I feel like you've just done something so egregious to me or you have a pattern of doing egregious things to me, which means holding me accountable, calling the police on me, all of these things that are legitimate. If you keep doing this, and I have a pathology that's a 10 on the spectrum, I'm going to do a lot of things to torture you. That's what I'm going to do. Now, does everybody move towards filicide? No. I mean, absolutely horrifying what you and other protective parents are suffering over and over again. But the reality is that we need to see these abusers for what they're capable of. And we're not.

Ali Kessler (: 22:00

I agree. I just feel like it's going to be the hardest fight for other individuals because if they are playing that game and you don't want to reveal them because you're afraid of what could happen, then again, what are your options? you're saying the judges or the courts won't help, know, you just feel like you're just stuck until the child is 18 or ages out.

Chapter 7: The Challenges of Parental Alienation

Dr. Cocchiola (: 22:23

Yeah, yeah. So, if your child in particular, you know, like, as all of you moms who have had to deal with this most horrifying circumstance, you know your child's not safe, the judge isn't listening. What is your, what is your, it’s a trap. So, you were trapped in the relationship, the child is trapped, the child doesn't have a choice. And now you, and now, and now you're trapped again by the court system. Because if you come out and say, I mean, I have moms who do this, they go to court, they're totally open or their children disclose. I have a mom in Massachusetts, the pediatrician said, my gosh, call the police right now. After the child disclosed abuse, mom calls police and gets a restraining order. The following week, the judge gave custody to the father. The father called her an alienator.

Ali Kessler (: 22:30

I hear stories like that a lot, and it makes me sick. It really does.

Dr. Cocchiola (: 22:57

Yeah, this is fathers have more rights, men have more rights. We have empathy in the court system, sympathy for men. And if you have money, if you can hire, there is collusion among these court players too.

Ali Kessler (: 23:10

Yeah. No, I hear stories now about, you know, children being sent to reunification camps because they, you know, I don't want to say complaint, but they talk about their coercive control, and instead, the child is suffering.

Dr. Cocchiola (: 23:32

I have a mom who hasn't seen her children in six years because and she never even prevented the father from seeing them. She just basically they didn't want to go and he immediately claimed alienation. I was friends with someone in the alienation industry, and she has not seen her children for six years.

Ali Kessler (: 24:55

Why do they think that that is the answer?

Dr. Cocchiola (: 25:03

They, you know, I think the problem is, and this is the problem with the word alienation, right, is that it originated from Richard Gardner's work. He never actually did a research study. He just supported fathers who were saying mothers were being dramatic when they were worried about their children's safety, in particular sexual abuse safety. And so he said whenever mothers said that their children were being sexually abused, they were actually lying and being dramatic, and the children should stop saying those lies about the father.

And so that's why we really don't even like the term parental alienation because it's frankly co-opted by father's rights groups. It's been literally taken over. Woody Allen started it. He tried to use it and it's been taken over. I prefer the term the abuser is trying to maliciously fracture the attachment with the protective parent. And if they can do that, if they can turn the children against or take the children away from her or in your case, right, literally, you know, harm their own children. And this way, they can do that. There's a variety of ways they can do it, and they choose their ways. Again, depending on their willingness to be so harmful and to break the law, right? Depending on their will. This father got away with it. He is again, six years without seeing her children. Those are cases I hear all the time. It's absolutely insane.

Ali Kessler (: 25:16

1000%. Yeah, I mean, I don't know how to even solve this problem when I feel like, you know, lawmakers or those who have the decision power are not listening. And also, you know, I know that everyone's situation is different, and a lot of parents that are trying to co-parent and navigate it, you know, they do have a banter back and forth. And it's- I want to use the term like the boy who cried wolf. How does, let's say a judge or a lawyer or someone, a GAL, decipher when someone is just being difficult or using abuse as power? Because sometimes it's a fine line.

Chapter 8: The Court’s Perception of Abuse

Dr. Cocchiola (: 26:00

Well, what I... Yeah, no, I think that there's that, but I also think, I don't think they care, I think the point is, is that they're getting paid to assess your case. And whether there was, just from all the cases I've done, whether there was a blatant abuse, physical violence, children witnessed it, it recently happened, or there was no abuse, he just maybe called her like horrible names, or the child doesn't want to go, or the child now hates one parent over the other, right? All of those circumstances, unless the abuser claims alienation unless the abuser claims alienation, those are 50-50 situations. So, these court actors are getting paid to write up reports, but not all of them. Of course, there are some good seeds out there, but many of them are writing up reports, and they're literally copying and pasting from a previous report, and they are just saying 50 -50.

They don't care that there was a history of abuse. And here's why. So, what I have come to know in my work is that if I am a Guardian Ad Litem, you call them a GAL, right? You just want to make sure everybody knows or a minor's counsel. And I am doing this work. In the state of Connecticut, you can do it if you're a social worker. You don't have to be an attorney. So, I'm doing this work.

And I really want, I like my pay. Like I'm getting paid a lot of money. I've got some rich people paying me some good bucks to do these assessments. I might even go out to see the kids a couple of times. Maybe I will, maybe I'll get to know them. I mean, I have seen Guardian Ad Litem’s who never even meet the children in person. I mean, this is how bad it is. So, they're writing reports. They're not even fully investigating. That's number one. Number two, I really like my pay. And you know what? If I want a judge, so judges are the people oftentimes who will say,

that choose someone from this list. And then attorneys get to say, we're not choosing that one, we're choosing that one. Attorneys sometimes have to approve the list, too. If I'm a guardian at light, I want to be on the good person list. I want to be on the list the court likes. And the only way to stay on the list that the courts like is not to have a bias to protect children. If my bias is to protect children, I am not going to get hired because what am I going to be doing? I'm going to be calling out abuse all of the time in the court system. I'm going to be going against the current. I'm not going to get paid. I'm not going to get called to do this work. My goal in doing this is to train now clinicians, therapists, attorneys, and coaches. My goal is to infiltrate the system with people who can actually take on these roles for like even 10 cases. By the time you do 10, a judge is going to say, don't come back to me; we'll take you off their list.

Ali Kessler (: 28:40

Easy. Yeah.

Dr. Cocchiola (: 28:41

They want things to just be like, OK, we're done.

Ali Kessler (: 29:50

No, it is not. And I honestly, from everything that I hear, I don't see it changing much quickly.

Dr. Cocchiola (: 29:53

It's not easy.

Erin Cooper (: 33:06

Well, and is it?

Dr. Cocchiola (: 28:50

Well, this is why, you know, and I know we're going to, my colleague and I are going to come on your podcast to talk about the book Framed, but we wanted the world to know women's stories because, I mean, I was sitting at my kitchen table last spring and I, working with protective mothers over, and I've been doing this work since I was 19, but I did not work specifically with mothers who were, I had some mothers who lost custody. I had some others whose children were alienated, but that's my entire population now. And I was sitting at my kitchen table, and I said, this has to go in a book. This is enough. It's got to be a case study of what is happening. And we needed on every lawyer, every judge's desk, we need people to be reading this book because the world, you guys know, you tell friends and family what's happened. I mean, they don't really believe it could have been that bad. They can't fathom that this is an epidemic.

This is literally an epidemic. It is happening every day to so many protective mothers. The moment she says she's an abuse victim, she's disbelieved 55 % of the time. The moment she says her child has been physically abused, she's disbelieved 73 % of the time in family court. And if she says her child suffered sexual abuse, she's disbelieved 85 % of the time. 85 % of the time.

Chapter 9: The Epidemic of Abuse

Dr. Cocchiola (: 30:01

Now, if I'm a predator, frankly, and one in three children will suffer sexual abuse before the age of 18, one in three girls, one in six boys before the age of 18. If I'm a predator, my gosh. Like I have just gotten carte blanche to abuse.

Erin (: 30:15

Well, we still all love Brad Pitt, right? And none of us want to believe that he's the reality of his history. And yeah, no one wants to believe it.

Dr. Cocchiola (: 30:37

Right.

Ali Kessler (: 30:28

I mean, there's a reason why his children are changing their last name.

Erin Cooper (: 30:31

I saw that I've been listening to your podcast, and I've found it very informative. And I thought the title of it was very interesting, Perfect Prey. And I was wondering if you would explain what that meant.

Dr. Cocchiola (: 30:44

Sure, sure. So, it's never a victim's fault. But what we know about victims and survivors is they have particular traits, typically. I'd call them super traits or wonderful traits. Typically, victims and survivors, abusers will capitalize on a person's kindness, on their empathy, on their agreeableness. You know, like, you know, I don't care if we go for sushi or if we go out to the steakhouse. It doesn't matter to me.

Victims and survivors can tend to be extremely conscientious and work hard at relationships. And so these character traits, loyal to a fault, like literally loyal no matter what someone has done to you, I this isn't the case for everyone, but most, we have research that affirms most victims and survivors are kind of built this way. And perpetrators love this. They're perfect prey. But now beyond that, my podcast, Perfect Prey, is really built about educating about the experiences of children. Who is the ideal prey for an abuser? Children. How can I manipulate a child to hate a wonderful parent? Or how can I manipulate a child to maybe only play the sport I want them to play because that'll make me feel good? Or how can I manipulate my child to hate all people of color?

Abusers are very black-and-white thinking, and they really indoctrinate like a cult their children into these horrible belief systems, and in the case of a vulnerable young child who I can use to hurt the protective parent as in the case of Ali. These kids become perfect prey. This is how I can hurt her. This is how I can, this is how I can really devastate someone, which is just, I mean again, it's just unbelievable.

Ali Kessler (: 32:26

Yeah, I mean, just to think that someone's mind could work like that. But it does. And you don't really believe it until it happens and until it happens to someone you know or yourself. I always talk with Erin, that like, I didn't know that this goes on. I was just a normal person living in Fort Lauderdale. I didn't know this stuff happens to people like me.

Dr. Cocchiola (: 32:46

Yeah, right. And that's the thing is, that I think I'm so grateful you're doing your podcast because there's a lot of people who don't know what happens. There's a lot still, you know, I mean, it's just it's not a conversation. It's a tough conversation, right? I mean, it's hard. And victims will go back to their abuser. Sometimes they don't want to tell people who he is sometimes because they're hopeful that he's not going to be that way again, you know. And so, yeah.

Ali (: 33:41

You know, it is. Right. Sure. I get a lot of anonymous people reaching out asking for help that, know, the number one question is, you know, I'm in a similar situation. I don't want my child to end up as Greyson's fate. What should I do? And I don't know what to tell them other than to take your child and run away. And I'm not even sure that you have better advice because there's nothing to do.

Chapter 10: Creating Change and Awareness

Dr. Cocchiola (: 33:30

Yeah, no, my advice is we need an underground railroad. We do. We need a safe space for all mothers and their children to run away to. We do. Yeah.

Ali Kessler (: 33:39

Well, I think for the interim, know, continuing education and speaking out and having training, I would love to do something like that within Florida specifically, and then see it roll out into every state. That's something that I could do for my part is just to help facilitate that.

Dr. Cocchiola (: 33:57

If you have, I am training attorneys all over the country, I've trained in other places in the world on what coercive control is and the impact on children. And if you can gather a bunch of people together, I will come and see you. And, I would be happy to do that training.

Ali Kessler (: 34:09

I guarantee that I could.

Dr. Cocchiola (: 34:11

That would be amazing. That's what we need. I think part of the issue is the people who come to the trainings actually might care, which is great. There's a whole complicit group of people who don't care, but what we have to do is weed them out. you know, we talk about this in our book. When we're on the podcast, we'll probably read this section of it. But, you know, in 1607, basically, we gave family court judges carte blanche. They could even behave maliciously, and they would not be held to account. And so, I was on the call earlier today with somebody from another state, and there's talks about just suing the bar associations in states. Like how do we create, you know, a big like movement, right, where we can actually hold these attorneys accountable who are not protecting victims, who are making victims sit in the same room or in the same hallway with an abuser. You know, like this is the or not thinking it's really important that these children are protected. Like, they don't, I mean, if this was your child, wouldn't you want your child to be protected from this person? they don't.

Ali Kessler (: 35:12

Do you think that these lawyers owe it to the child since the parent is their client?

Dr. Cocchiola (: 35:18

Well, I do, like I think like, so here's the issue becomes is that when you grow up in a home with a coercive controller a Narcissistic abuser will calm that's what Romney and I like they're abusers, right? So, we can calm narcissistic abusers because they have that that ideology right in their head that so, you know, so If you grow up in that home, you learn to regulate your behaviors every single day just like the protective parentage

You are constantly in the reptilian part of your brain. You're in fight, flight, or freeze- in that, you may either become much more of a fawner in life, where you end up maybe in an abusive relationship, or you might come out a fighter. You might become someone who needs to exert power and control over others to feel good in the same way, because abusers will shame the children. The children know even if they're not overtly shaming them. The children know that the love that they're getting from that abuser is conditional. It's conditional that they are objects. And then add in that abusers then say, your mother, she doesn't really love you. Or your mother loves your brother more than you. Or it's too bad your mother's always so tired and she's not available to you. I'm available to you. And so the child is getting this messaging that maybe the protective parent actually doesn't unconditionally love them either. And what that does.

is it's the breeding ground for narcissistic abusers and coercive controllers. It is the breeding ground. Now it can be stopped with appropriate protective parenting. I would love to come on and do a podcast just on the impact on children with you, if you'd ever want me to come back and do that. We can prevent our children from becoming abusers, but what they need is a solid foundation with a protective parent, which is really challenging when abusers are constantly trying to fracture that away.

Ali Kessler (: 36:50

Yeah, that would be great. Right. And there's just no accountability anywhere. I think that's the hardest part.

Dr. Cocchiola (: 37:06

I'm sure, so I'm sure you've read Judith Herman's book Truth and Repair. If you haven't, put it on your list. It is a lot about sexual abuse, but what she's really talking about is there is literally... The problem with all of these abuses is that you not only become a victim of the perpetrator, but you're a victim of the system. And there's no accountability. And when we...It's almost worse when you go to the systems that are intended to protect you. When you go to them, and they don't protect you. It's almost worse than the original abuse that you suffered. Because you actually figured out that this person is a bad person. You've accepted that. But now you're going to the court, and they aren't protecting you. And that, she talks about how it's really challenging to repair. Which is why so many people do what you do, and I do because repair for me actually means just being social justice advocate. Like that's my repair. And it was my repair even before I was a victim. That's how I lived my life. But I see this over and over again with adult victims who have suffered this. They have to create change. And that's what you're doing. You're trying to create change.

Ali Kessler (: 38:14

Hopefully, hopefully that's what we're doing here.

Erin Cooper (: 38:18

You're shining a light. Yeah, you're shining a light on this dark, terrible epidemic.

Ali Kessler (: 38:26

Yep, that's what, you know, I guess that's what everyone is trying to do when they tell their story, when they talk, when they put out a book. So, I'm very excited about your book. We are going to have you back on with your co-author, Amy Polacko. I want to make sure I got that right. But tell us, it comes out on October 1st?

Dr. Cocchiola (: 38:40

Absolutely. Yes. Domestic Violence Awareness Month, and yes, I don't like calling it domestic violence because I feel like it's problematic because everybody thinks it's violent. So, I'll just say that, but that's the month. That's what we call it. And yeah, so it's coming out. It's available for pre-order right now. People can go to our website www.narcfreepress.com and certainly can find information on my Instagram, @Dr.Cocchiola_coercivecontrol

Ali (: 39:05

I will put all those links in the show notes. Yeah, no, I could talk to you all day. We're definitely going to have you back on to talk about what we can do for the children and your book. I'm sure we can think of more topics in the near future. But I really appreciate you taking your time and talking with us. Hopefully, we answered some questions that I know our listeners ask often.

Dr. Cocchiola (: 39:32

Awesome. Thank you so much, Ali. Thank you, Erin.

Erin Cooper (: 39:36

Thank you.

Ali Kessler (: 39:38

Bye, guys.